Help: External speaker jack on drri, dead

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Hi Mango Moon,
I'm off the "technical" topic here, and I'm sorry I have no "technical" help to offer this time, but I think you owe Enzo an apology....

I regularly read his posts, and he's never insulting or arrogant, his will to help others and share his knowledge is plain for all to see, he's often hilarious and his attitude is genuinely "positive". In all fairness, re-reading his post I couldn't find anything offensive in his attempt to help you.

I understand there are times when we get bored, frustrated, or inclined to negativity, but we should never leave things like this get in our way, especially when posting here.

The true spirit of forums like this is to help others when we can, get help when we need it, share and gain knowledge, and, last but not least, have some fun in the process....and since there aren't many "places" like this left on this poor planet, I'd like we all to do our best to keep it this way.

If you re-read your answer to Enzo, once you've cooled down, you'll probably see and agree you've stepped beyond the line, and I wish you'll be fair enough to step back.

Just my 2 cents worth thought

Peace, love, tone

Bob

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I agree with Robert.
What is with you other guys? I'm angry for Enzo.
You are all are being much too kind to this twit.
To be honest, I would have been VERY hard pressed not to tell him to shove it up his ass within moments of reading that foundation-less tirade.
I'd be shocked if most of you who've been here for any real length of time don't agree.
I admit Enzo and I are probably in the top 10 or so old fart senior techs here but most of the rest are not children and the only way to stop this kind of crap is to push back and say something instantly and then completely ignore the perp from that point on.

Enzo you owe no one an apology!
You should retract that reply and demand one instead.

*************
Steve, that kind of speaker jack is called a transfer jack with two switch lugs on it and yes, I have seen those in a few modern Fender amps.
I can't tell from the description if this is what the issue is or if it is simply cockpit error with the emphasis on cock.

[trem]

I agree with Robert.
What is with you other guys? I'm angry for Enzo.
You are all are being much too kind to this twit.
To be honest, I would have been VERY hard pressed not to tell him to shove it up his ass within moments of reading that foundation-less tirade.
I'd be shocked if most of you who've been here for any real length of time don't agree.
I admit Enzo and I are probably in the top 10 or so old fart senior techs here but most of the rest are not children and the only way to stop this kind of crap is to push back and say something instantly and then completely ignore the perp from that point on.

Enzo you owe no one an apology!
You should retract that reply and demand one instead.

*************
Steve, that kind of speaker jack is called a transfer jack with two switch lugs on it and yes, I have seen those in a few modern Fender amps.
I can't tell from the description if this is what the issue is or if it is simply cockpit error with the emphasis on cock.

I am sure you have been in Enzo's position before. we all have, does not matter what the topic/profession is. When YOU are the person dealing with an immature/egotistical client or customer, you do your best to maintain a state of professionalism. But onlookers have a tendency to react just like you did, "tell that guy to go pound sand"!!! Like I say, I am sure there have been/will be times when you yourself will "take the high road", even though the other guy is so far out of bounds and so wrong it is laughable. Just like this situation here.
But to support you Bruce, YES, we all know the OP is being a complete ass.

[tboy]

...the only feasible explanation (in my view) is that the overall output at the External jacks (all four amps) is too low to drive a secondary (8-ohm) speaker. I don't know what else it could possibly be.

I don't know what your problem is, but I do know the "view" you've expressed above is incorrect. Please don't take that personally, as it's only intended as a matter of fact and a suggestion that the problem lies elsewhere.

[Gtr_tech]

Great!

Look "Enzo", you seem to lie in wait for these threads and then you typically pipe in with your pointed criticisms of the author's issue or the way they've worded it (you've done it several times in the past), but do me a favor will you? Keep your arrogant criticisms to yourself!



What say you now?

Hmmm....I say you don't know what the f@ck yer doin'. Don't blame others for that. Enzo knows his shit and contributes to not only this forum, but *several* others as well. Don't like it? Pound sand.

[Mango Moon]

To Jag & Billy Z: Thanks for your insights and for the attached Fender Service Manual DRRI. Its all valuable stuff. Yes, I've been a bit "frustrated" by this, and yes, I tend to get annoyed with certain types, most of whom have no legitimate claim to their self-perceived importance, but I'm grateful for those who can contribute without unnecessary attitude. So again, my thanks.

To ENZO: As I said to you previously, sir, your earlier assistance was duly and rightfully appreciated, but your choice of words and tone were not! You've been responding in this fashion on several occasions dating back more than a year, and it simply didn't work for me this time around. The fact is, I've raised five (5) sons, all of whom are 30+ now, and I don't tolerate arrogance or flippant ridicule from a single one of them, so I certainly won't tolerate it from the public at-large, especially when there was nothing said or done to warrant it.

To STEVIE-BOY (in Lockerbee-land): Whatever blows your skirt up there, tuff-guy! Its the . . . "Bravery of Being Out of Range" (Rogers Waters).

STATUS OF THE PROBLEM: The External Speaker issue with our "65 DRRI amp, that dates back now to nearly a full year ago (addressed here and in a previous 2008 thread), has been identified, although not yet resolved, and I'll explain the overall circumstances here for the benefit of the greater (current and future) audience.

Earlier today, it occurred to me that the two (2) extension cab speaker cables that we have been using here for both the INTERNAL and EXTERNAL speaker connections (i.e., Live Wire Elite 2X12-ga. 1/4") were (and are) substantially longer and heavier in weight than the very short, lightweight (~18-ga. soldered) Fender speaker wire (shipped with the amp) that is used exclusively for the INTERNAL (combo) speaker connection.

Unfortunately, what follows next here is difficult to detail properly (or to follow), but again, I'll try my best:

Wondering whether there might be a difference in performance between the two speaker jacks relative to the two types of speaker wire (i.e., the ~18 ga. Fender combo speaker wire with soldered 'Y' connector vs. the 12 ga., dual 1/4" phone plug on the two extension cab Live Wire Elites), I swapped them both (directly criss-crossed them) for the first time. In other words, I disconnected the short, ultra lightweight Fender cable (the one soldered directly to the internal combo speaker) from the INTERNAL speaker jack and I connected it to the EXTERNAL speaker jack. I then connected one of the extension cabs to the INTERNAL speaker jack using one of the heavyweight (2X12 ga. 1/4") Live Wire Elites. Significantly, BOTH speakers worked for the first time!

However, and this is where it gets dicey, the reverse of that configuration does NOT work. In other words, the heavy-duty Live Wire Elite cable (with attached extension cab) will work in either jack (INTERNAL or EXTERNAL) as long as the lighter weight Fender cable is its partner in the remaining (neighboring) jack, but it will NOT work if its partner in the remaining (neighboring) jack is a matching (heavyweight) Live Wire Elite cable.

Thus:

One Lightweight (INTERNAL) + One Heavyweight (EXTERNAL): Only the INTERNAL works

One Lightweight (EXTERNAL) + One Heavyweight (INTERNAL): Both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL Work

One Heavyweight (INTERNAL) + One Heavyweight (EXTERNAL): Only the INTERNAL works

Now, I hope I've described it in clear enough fashion. Is this a "complex" phenomenon? Hell, I don't know. I'll leave that for others here to determine. Is the problem associated with the cable or is it with the jack? Again, the phenomenon occurs with BOTH Live Wire Elite cables (i.e., both work perfectly fine if used in the INTERNAL jack alone, and both fail to work in the EXTERNAL jack when the neighboring INTERNAL jack is occupied by another heavyweight Live Wire). So, the audience is free to draw its own conclusions as to cause.

MY CONCLUSION?: This problem has been going-on now (without being firmly identified) for nearly a year, and yes, it has indeed caused a fair bit of frustration for several people on several fronts (including me), but clearly, something about the total output at the EXTERNAL speaker jack (on this particular amp) is different from that of the INTERNAL jack. Whatever it is, its subtle, and as I readily acknowledged earlier in this thread, I'm no electrical engineer, but that's the story in a nutshell. Basically, this amp will need to go to a qualified technician for repair or it simply won't be used with an External speaker.

End of story.

In closing, my sincere apologies to all for what developed into a "seemingly" complex little riddle, but my thanks to each and everyone who responded here including Enzo.

[Mango Moon]

I think you owe Enzo an apology....

If you re-read your answer to Enzo, once you've cooled down, you'll probably see and agree you've stepped beyond the line, and I wish you'll be fair enough to step back. Bob

Bob,

Thanks for your post and for your sentiments. I appreciate what you've said, and what's more, I fully agree. I did indeed go overboard in my response with Enzo yesterday. It was just a bad day all around. But again, there's some relevant history here, and despite what you and others may feel, there was some "edge" to Enzo's initial post yesterday. Its simply not open to debate. Its done! And my previous post is as close as its ever going to get to an apology.

But thank you again for your observations and your sentiments.

[Mango Moon]

By the way, for those of you who previously expressed some skepticism about my having reported this same (external speaker jack) issue occurring with other combo amps, let me clarify or correct something:

The other combo amps tested here were ALL vintage Magnatones (262, 280 and 480), and for anyone familiar with those particular amps, the external speaker wiring (and use of "remote" or extension cabs) are extremely sophisticated due to their somewhat unique stereo vibrato circuitry. The point being, depending on the operator's own experience with Magnatones and how he/she positions the various controls (i.e., channel 1/channel 2 inputs, mono/stereo vibrato selector, internal speakers on/internal speakers off selector, etc.), it is EASILY possible to achieve no sound whatsoever from an external ("remote") speaker and speaker cable that are both perfectly functional, and that's precisely what occurred here yesterday.

In other words, contrary to my earlier assertions, the External (remote) speaker jacks are perfectly functional on all of our other combo amps except the DRRI, and I apologize for the error in that regard. I trusted the observations of others on that score when I should have conducted those tests directly myself.

[Jag]

Enzo, Bruce and Steve are the three I most respect here. It's not my fight so I choose not to wade in earlier. However, from where I sit, Enzo and Steve have both been treated unfairly. No one gives more on this forum and Enzo, Steve and Bruce are supremely knowledgeable and helpful.

In your original thread, from last year, Enzo answered your question clearly and succinctly in his first two posts. I honestly cannot see how you were left with any confusion.

Regarding your current issue, something still does not make sense. With what you've posted today, regarding the swapping of cables, something must be going on with one or both of the "heavyweight" cables. After all, at the end of the day, all three of your cables are just wire and jacks. It's as simple as that. Maybe when you get the amp to a tech "face to face" the cause will become obvious. Pictures, as I suggested earlier, can be infinitely helpful.

[Jag]

BTW, Lockerbie was a SUPREME TRAGEDY that affected many innocent people in many ways. Steve lives in SCOTLAND! (Yes, I do know where Lockerbie is, that's not my point.)

[stokes]

Thanks Stokes.

I'm afraid this is a bit over my head. I've got a multimeter here and I know how to use it for the most part, but that's about it (i.e., I'm not a pro amp tech or anything, just a guitar player).

I guess what I was hoping for here is definitive confirmation from someone that the simultaneous use of two 8-ohm speakers using both the Internal and External jacks was indeed the design by Fender (i.e., that something is positively wrong with my amp), or conversely, a definitive confirmation that the simultaneous use of two 8-ohm speakers was NOT intended by design, and that what I'm experiencing is perfectly normal.

Once I determine the answer to this central question, then I'll be able to proceed with repairs if needed or warranted.

Thanks.

In the first place,I would like to say your response to Enzo was way out of line.We have all had some degree of disagreements on some issues here from time to time and quite often it is merely a case of just misinterpreting a response as being overly critical or sarcastic,its not always so clear to "read" intent in an online forum as this.There was no call for that reaction.An apology is indeed due.You come to a forum like this looking for help,and you attack two of the more knowledgable guys here?If as you say,the simple test I gave you "is a bit over your head" you really have no business being that close to any amp repair,or responding the way you did.You are,as Enzo pointed out,overcomplicating this.It is a simple non-shorting jack connected with a simple wire tip to tip with the shorting internal jack.I have read your posts and I think it is clear that it is either a very dirty jack (unlikely) or a bad connection on one of the 2 solder points,or as Steve pointed out,a seperate output tap,I've seen that on Mesa amps,but that would be way over your head.

[Enzo]

It is in the past, we can move on.

May I suggest the following. You know the amplifier itself works, it produces output into the internal speaker. SO at least up to the output transformer secondary wires things are OK. Those wires feed the pair of jacks. the internal jack is a common type with a tip shunt contact. the external jack is a common open circuit type. COnsider just replacing the pair of jacks. That may not tell us exactly what is going on, but it should eliminate any odd circuit circumstances that may be there. it seems that by changing what is plugged into each jack that you can find different operation. Proper jack action would generally provide consistent operation regardless of what compatible plug was inserted.

[Mango Moon]

STOKES:

Like everyone else here, you have a right to draw your own conclusions and to express your own opinion, and I salute that "right" all day long. In fact, I fought for it, long and hard, over forty-years ago! Further, you are entitled to extract whatever pleasure you can from 'gang-banging' me here further, if you so choose, but understand this . . .

When I ask someone what time it is, I don't want or need them to build me a clock. After readily acknowledging to someone that I'm not an engineer by trade and that I don't care to become one, I didn't need them following-up by accusing me of unnecessarily "trying" to make something overly complex or alleging that I'm somehow too inexperienced to understand that "of course" internal and external speaker jacks can be used together simultaneously. THAT is what occurred and THAT was condescending, and I don't give a rats ass what you or anyone else here thinks about it, plain and simple.

Secondly, there weren't TWO (2) respondent's in this entire flippin' thread who had common agreement between them about the nature or expected performance of the external speaker jack on this particular amplifier, yet I'm accused (first by Enzo, then by you and others) of somehow purposefully "complicating" the phenomenon?!@#$%^&*?

All-in-all, its really quite laughable! It apparently wasn't too complicated an issue for any of you, yet, did any of you you solve it? You've busily talked about everything being "over my head" from Mesa Boogie to Deluxe Reverb II's to shorting jacks and separate output taps and this type or that type of jack, ad nauseum . . . but did any of you solve it? No, you didn't! So, in reality, it DID prove to be somewhat complicated, didn't it?

Thanks for your opinion.

[Mango Moon]

It is in the past, we can move on.

May I suggest the following. You know the amplifier itself works, it produces output into the internal speaker. SO at least up to the output transformer secondary wires things are OK. Those wires feed the pair of jacks. the internal jack is a common type with a tip shunt contact. the external jack is a common open circuit type. COnsider just replacing the pair of jacks. That may not tell us exactly what is going on, but it should eliminate any odd circuit circumstances that may be there. it seems that by changing what is plugged into each jack that you can find different operation. Proper jack action would generally provide consistent operation regardless of what compatible plug was inserted.

ENZO:

Thank you again for your initial observations on this issue and for the added suggestions you've provided here, and I apologize for snapping at you so venomously yesterday.

To some, it was completely uncalled for. To me, it was somewhat justified, albeit excessive and uncharacteristically harsh. However, it was NOT who I am as a person, and yet it was me who wrote and submitted it, so there really is no where for me to hide on it.

In the final analysis, regardless of what it was from you that may have prompted such a vigorous response, or the merits of my own angst over content and tone, I too had the choice of doing what I suggested that you do (i.e., to walk away), and yet I didn't. That was hypocritical, and that alone warrants an apology.

Thanks again.

[billyz]

Based on the new information about your extension speaker cable, I would question the actual phono jack itself. It may be a slightly different size or even the shape of the tip could be the problem. I have encounter quite a few high end and usual 1/4 " plugs that did not mate up well with certain jacks. Switchcraft always seem to get the job done however. Try using a more conventional ext cable and let us know the results.