Wanted to get some advice about starting reconing at my amp shop. Good idea?

[clydey]

john believe it or not i was complimenting your business sense.
like Enzo i too was coin ops repair man drifted over from the tv radio side.
Then i made the mistake of becoming a gaming machine operator.Our business was two tier 1 renting out 2 repairing. so- bought a gaming licence
and started a partnership with another tech buying fruits/pool tables/jukeboxes/video games ect and putting them on sites .I bought on HP and rented them out.When i worked previously to that for other operators their formulae was that the 1st year rental paid for the equipment 2nd year rental for the service and 3rd year rental was profit.we built on that model repairing showmens equipment, arcade pieces, operators who we were not in competition to ect and renting out to the pub and club clientel. Now when you consider that in the middle eighties 2 club gaming machines bought over one year cost as much as the on the road price of a new mini car gives you an idea of our investment.We emloyed 9 techs plus 1 secretary plus i was on the benches and my partner had the suit on.
SOUNDS GOOD.SO WHAT HAPPENED
The publican started having cashflow problems so started demanding the latest machines but wanted to pay less and less, would not sign contracts and many a time i had to go to a pub to meet the baliffs to get my equipment back and sometimes the publican had sold the equipment and done a runner.Thus the vicious circle started with the other operators who were also feeling the pinch so what did they do
They went to your customer and offered 3 months free rental and a vicious spiral of decline descended.
Fixed overheads started decreasing/ we paid off the techs (sad day as many were my friends and i had taught some also) and so it went on until there was only the two of us left.
We split what was left of the business and i sold my small half to pay my remaining debts and got out. My ex partner latched onto to a brewery tie renting and supplying big screen tv and subsequently got roasted.
At present in the UK 49 pubs a week are going out of business - troubles that started before the recession but you cant have a knocking shop so to speak if nobody's knocking.
I understand all about your rates and the underlying overheads - many a time after paying the techs i had nothing left and had to go to relations to borrow the housekeeping.
Now i am a self employed (1 man no dog) electrician with no desire to grow at all but have no job satisfaction and a yearning to get back on the bench again.(having been self employed it is not in my nature to work for anyone else again so building the tools and reading these threads both technically and business wise is helping me tremendously)
keep up the good work cheers.

[Enzo]

Oh my dear yes, the vending/coin/amusement business is brutal and vicious. You strike an agreement with a club owner to provide the games, juke, pool tables, and some other operator comes in, promises the sky and a better percentage, and that club owner calls you and says come get your stuff right now or I throw it on the street.

Imagine you booked a gig for your band for next friday, you pull up to load in and the club owner comes out and says "pack it back up, we found another band who will play for less."

What we call here "location loans" are now common. You set a contract with the location - club, restaurant, whatever - and determine the weekly income will be X. The club then demands their percentage for the coming year up front as a "loan" against projected earnings. Now instead of collecting the money from the equpment each week and splitting it on the spot, I get to keep all the money until the "loan" is satisfied. But I had to come up with the amount to start with.

But every indistry has its horror stories.

Glad to hear you like the bench enough to want back at it. TO be honest, I have been looking for a new position for several years. This can be a hobby better than a business, as far as I am concerned. I'd like to teach. I'd be a good technical support guy for some company. I could be the guy you call at PV or Fender or someplace. But I don;t want to relocate at this point in life. And I would consider a new industry too. My dream gig would have been at the cyclotron lab here at MSU, but they want engineering degrees over there for even the lowest positions. Circuit board assembler? EE degree. Instrument calibration tech? EE degree. You can tell you are in trouble when they ask for a "CV" instead or a resume.

[AudioWorks]

It sounds like warranty work would be terrible for a business in new york city then with so much overhead. I will always prefer non warranty work to warranty.
Im always thinking of how to expand my business, for example id like to start doing rentals since there’s not really anyone around my side of town doing rentals that i know of. I know some stores i worked for made a large profit on rentals. They had the storage space and shop to hold and maintain lots of gear just for that.
Sometimes I think of getting a guitar tech up in my shop again but so many businesses do only that and there’s always a guy right by that will do it for super cheap out of his house. I had a guy for a short while and i was advertising and I just got a bunch of calls and people telling me they were gonna bring this or that but hardly anyone would ever actually come by and the tech demanded almost all the profit like 90 percent. Totally different feel then electronic repair work. My prices were equal or a little less actually then the other guitar shops of course I couldn’t get the prices as low as the home repair guys just doing it for fun so that didnt last long at all.
Actually right now im getting some gear from one home shop because apparently a repair guy that worked out of his garage had it burn down and wasn’t able to save everything ive been told by a few customers. I can tell if its from him cause it has this nasty chemical smoke smell all over it and some has actual fire damage on it. I dont think he has fire insurance so i dont know what the poor guy is gonna do. Insurance has been something i always had even at the start. I mean i had to have it to do work for some larger companies that would send lots of gear at a time. So it was worth the couple hundred a month
As far as coin machines i have wanted to buy a used coke machine and find some where to put it for a while just to get a feel for it see if it made much profit and if it did buy a few more. Still want to try it, I figure there’s not really that much risk to start even if i totally lose the machine to vandalism worst case it just be like well i lost on the cost of a used coke machine which from what ive seen isnt that much at all. Ive actually got a couple business owners ive mentioned it to that im friendly with that have areas that would be perfect for some. They are high volume areas with lots of hot tired people and no other machines around. But so far its just an idea. Anyone ever expand into something profitable from just repairs on here, id like to hear how some of you guys have been successful at increasing your profits.

[clydey]

on the coin op vending side which i did not get into .This has the following tasks (problems) to think about.
the cost of the machine.
the cost of the saleable goods including the regular wholesaler runs.
suitable transport to deliver machine bearing in mind suitable transport for servicing and refill and cash collection - all not done only at your convenience.
cost of any stickers for advertising.
servicing coin and mechanical jams in a timely period.
extra help for installations and uplift
spare machine for when you have to take the machine back to the workshop for major repair (vandalism ect)
cost to recode coin mechs on price update/spare coin mechs/spare parts.
weekend/evening/holiday service cover.
eventually update machine
rivals who WILL come in and offer incentives
dealing with joe public "it took my money and gave me nothing and i am waiting here for you to come out and give me my money back out of the machine;
could be time for a vendor to chime in
---------------------------------------------------------------
what are the advantages/disadvantages in repairing power amps like qvc, crown/crest ect
mabey Enzo could add something to that as i have come across a few of his posts on the Diyaudio forum cheers

[Steve Conner]

Enzo: You ought to apply for a job at the MSU cyclotron lab anyway. The degree requirement is just the university trying to keep it in the family. Sure, they want a degree for every position, but do they have enough applicants with degrees to fulfil that?

I'm sure you could fix a cyclotron better than any number of EE graduates, anyway. Give it a whack, and if it crackles, jumper the FX loop with a liquid helium cooled busbar.

Clydey: I'd steer clear of those big power amps unless you're comfortable troubleshooting switched-mode power supplies, which most of them now have in some form. But maybe Enzo has a different view on this, it could be that the power supply hardly ever fails and all you have to do is the usual, replacing the output transistors and any parts they took with them.

[clydey]

in the jpm coin machines based in Wales in the late eighties they had three psu red/yellow/blue label. i am positive 2 of them were smps and i worked on them..also i believe the video games had them but in that case because of the cost of a replacement psu we just installed another. recently ive been suffering from CRAFT - cant remember a flucking thing so bear with me if i am a wee bit innacurate.
my belief is that a keen tech can overcome the difficulties associated with these types of problems but it always helps to get the opinion of people who are doing it.
on the diy audio forum there is kevin heber (i believe he works for Crown but not sure)helping out, Crown supply service manuals and schematics FOC.
Also there is Lee.Basham who was service manager in England for C-Audio before it was taken over by Harman and given to Crown helping out.
I have never communicated with them but only read their threads.
An idea that is fermenting in my head is that as well as running an amp repair workshop - getting familiarity with these power amps and also the lighting side could open the doors to installing/repairing/replacing/ equipment in small venues dance halls/ theatres/discos/outdoor events/indoor events dealing with a corporate type of customer thus building a clientel list not depended on just the amount of repairs that come through the door that month.
i have downloaded some peavey manuals that were excellent that i believe were used by the training officers that go into the design and repair in a deep fashion and also some by the power amp manufacturers that i have just come across.
i respect what you are saying about the smps and rigs would have to be built to test them in isolation and other unknown pitfalls overcome
and i would be very grateful for any tips / experience that can be given.
cheers for the reply Steve

[Enzo]

Thanks for the vote, Steve, but the MSU cyclotron, I mean the National SUperconducting Cyclotron Lab is a world class international facility. It is a big deal, and competes with places like CERN and Fermilab. We just not long ago were approved for the new FRIB addition - Facility for Rare Isotope Beams. Another $billion project. That is getting underway. SO really they have no shortage of people falling over themselves with resume in hand. We have commercial spinoffs like Niowave here inthe area, so ther may be some avenue for involvement. On the other hand I am pretty long in the tooth for most of these places.

QSC Crown etc. I used to do a lot of that work. When my shop was in the building with a sound company and retailer, I saw a lot more of those amp repairs. I don;t see the warranty stuff anymore, and let my QSC affiliation lapse.

All the amp- makers put out a SMPS based power amp, but linears are still quite common, and I see more linear power amps than SMPS. I don;t mind working on the SMPS. I don;t see it as a deal breaker.

[Ronsonic]

There are a few manufacturers that have proven more trouble than they're worth. Mostly companies and a clientèle with delusions of just how valuable their name is. One side of our shop was doing plasma TVs, there was a loser. Same for some of the not-quite-high-end hifi brands.

Here in Tampa the subject of rates is a bit funny. The shop I'm at is at $80 an hour. We've got a competitor charging 40. I've seen their invoices. It seems that repairs take exactly twice as long over there as they do here. Must a some sort of time warp in their zip code.

[Enzo]

Oh I've encountered that. Another shop quoted $25 an hour, but they had estimates on Peavey SS heads of $150-200 or more, while my labor for a blown PV SS amp board was unlikely to top $60, and parts maybe $20.

[clydey]

Enzo i second Steves vote.
but why would you consider giving up your independence.
get involved by all means but on your terms and conditions
you cannot buy experience and the other mans grass is always greener.
cheers

[AudioWorks]

I actually see alot of large pa amps. I remeber when i fist started at some other companies i was the only guy willing to work on the peavey cs amps at one shop. It was just the muteing circuits more often then not. But i get alot of qsc crown mackie rack amps cerwin vega that kinda thing. I do work for a couple clubs right now and they allways are blowing there amps.
I saw a ton of equipment that was payed for by insurance companies after ike flooded every one around. One church i checked out there entire large audio system. Made a good bit of money on that. People were willing to spend when insurance takes the bill lol. Just sucked waiting for them to accept the quote. I still have some gear in my wharehouse waiting for insurance companies to give the ok. Oh and i learned not to give free estimates to insurance companies i mean not when im waiting 30-90 days.

[Enzo]

I don't want to get too sidetracked on my own career aspirations, but touching on being self-employed is pertinent. I have applied to the cyclotron lab, and they really do want engineering degrees all over there. I think I could contribute, but I am not an engineer, I am a technician, or perhaps a technologist if you prefer. Everything over there is designed and built from scratch. After all there are not a lot of huge superconducting cyclotron parts stores in most towns. And when they need something to control thousands of amperes, and it doesn;t yet exist, it is not quit the same as adding an FX loop or a reverb. SO if the boss brought me his ADAT, I could fix it. But if the boss told me the power bandwidth of this cavity driver is unstable to 5 parts per million, frankly I am not the guy who knows what formulae to consider. SO I don;t resent them in the slightest.

Meanwhile, back at the shop. Why give up my independence? Please, anyone considering opening up his own business, independence is a great word, but often does not apply. Independence means no security. Your business takes a downturn, so does your paycheck. A day off? Sure, whenever you want, but a day off is a day you make no income. A paid vacation is something an employer gives you out of his pocket to keep you coming back after that day off. ANy problem at all, is YOUR problem. There is no manager to bounce it up to, you is he.

People love to say, "Oh, self employed, must be nice, you can write off anything you want." Oh really? Well to "write something off" I have to spend the money on it first. All writing something off means is that as a business expense it comes off the gross income figure. SO you don;t pay the taxes on the amount. A small business like mine is not likely to be audited by the IRS. But if you are audited, they won;t look kindly on your "write off" of a boat and trolling motor "for the company." Or the new livingroom sofa.

"But dude, you won;t have anyone fuckin' telling you what to DO." You mean other than the customers? The bank? And I think it pretty high-school to look upon having a supervisor as someone pushing you around. Certtainly there are ogres in management, but there is no free ride. True, I can screw around any time I want. But then we are back to that, any time I want to waste is time I make no income. But my hours are on my door, so I have to be here whether someone else assigns me or I do it myself.


And the cold calls!!! OH my god. Phone rings all day long. "Hi, need to speak with the person who handles your copier toner." "Hi, are you the person who makes the light bulb purchases?" "Hi, do you want to save $100 on your phone bill?" "How you doing? Listen, our man NAte will be in your area tomorrow, so I wanted to let you know he'll be dropping in to speak with you for JUST a few minutes about how you can save big on health insurance for your staff. OK?" (No, not OK. in fact Nate can expect my boot in his ass as he gets kicked out my door.) And of course the 500 different "yellow pages" guys who call up to "update" your listing. WHo is the manager? WHo authorizes purchases. How many employees? pretty much anything someone might want to know before they make a cold call your way. Gee, I wonder how they make up the lists??? "We are expanding our office into your area, and our man will be by tomorrow between 10 and 11AM, OK? He will tell you about our business services, blah blah blah, if he talks to you more than 2 minutes, it will be because he is answering important questions that YOU asked." "Are you accepting credit cards? We can offer you big savings..."

The local high school, the local colleges, the local police auxilliary, the friends of the firehouse, the local Christian radio station. COunt on all those and more calling up so you can buy a sponsorship. DO I want my business ad on phone book covers they hand out? Maybe on the placemats at our fundraiser dinner. On and on.

When you are self-employed, you ARE the business. Sitting down to dinner with the wife at a nice restaurant... "Hey Enzo, glad I ran into you. Say is my SVT ready yet, I need it next wednesday." Or worse, "Hey Enzo, mind if I sit down for a minute, I need to ask you about...." Honest to god, I am here to have dinner with my wife, not hold a seminar on amplifier modification.

Some people have a wonderful experience as an entrepreneur, I don't discourage anyone from giving it a try. But it is not a seat in the lap of luxury.

And that is the difference. As an employee I have a job, a responsibility, an area to apply my expertise. As an entrepreneur, I am now a business owner. They are not the same. Either or both can be rewarding, but not always to everyone.

[clydey]

yes i understand being also a small business.
but on the upside when cashflow is tight and the bank manager calls you in you know what to expect - a bit of financial pressure.
when your boss calls you in unexpectedly on a friday night as is happenning here and the USA and tells you he is going to miss you (he is going nowhere you are) you have to break that news to your other half over dinner at a restuarant - a real spoiler.
and then the bit you put down on the new job application (58 years old in my case or is it 57) gets filed immediately in the third filing cabinet (the trash can).
when i left the coin business i swore that although i would be self employed again i would not commit myself to a business that i could not walk away from on a friday for good, (always paying upfront or cash rather than account) except that i bought a merc sprinter over 2 years £290 a month , the payments ending jan 2010.thank F***
this (small is good)philosophy has hindered my business to the extent that i need to employ labour or kill myself lifting floorboards/chasing walls/in cupboards changing fuse boxes at back breaking angles.etc but refuse to do so (EMPLOY PEOPLE) as the irs have made it an absolute nightmare for the small business to do this ie wifes had a baby- need maternity leave say 6 months with pay WTF and all the other crap that westminster throws at you
When you have been self employed for a long time there is a bit of your nature that becomes non employable.
in my early life i worked for a company for two years and got the sack for not bending over backwards for a throughly horrible customer. ok my fault.
went back 2 years later and walked out after 4 days (more experienced eyes)
that was in the days when you could leave a job on a friday and start a new job monday somewhere else after a couple of phone calls.
times have changed and work is scarce, i took a music degree at 48 at goldsmith university (what a waste of time)bmus(hons) with a veiw to teaching.my son got one a couple years later same degree and is secondary school teaching - me - back on the tools. its called agism and it is everywhere
if you talied up your resume i bet it would be just as good as anybodies
so next time you are at the restaurant give yourself a toast to a well respected technician - yourself

[olddawg]

Oh I've encountered that. Another shop quoted $25 an hour, but they had estimates on Peavey SS heads of $150-200 or more, while my labor for a blown PV SS amp board was unlikely to top $60, and parts maybe $20.

IMHE for a consumer it is usually better to find a small shop with a couple of good honest techs and an estimate fee than a big shop with free estimates and a service manager that doctors every invoice to the maximum what he can squeeze out of every customer. One of the reasons I left the industry was because the shop I worked for was sold and the new owners were flat out ugly in their practices. It took me a while to see it because my callback rate was only around 1.5%, but when I saw the final invoices I couldn't believe what they were doing. Exaggerating the labor, adding parts, really exaggerating the parts pricing. But yeah, the estimate was free.

[J M Fahey]

but they want engineering degrees over there for even the lowest positions. Circuit board assembler? EE degree. Instrument calibration tech? EE degree. You can tell you are in trouble when they ask for a "CV" instead or a resume.

Enzo, you are exactly right on that.
I have as neighbours this small factory, just 1 block from my house (in Buenos Aires), very well set up, where they make excellent Gas-in-Blood analyzers, exported the world over (gee, not *everything* is made in China) , and they have EE's stuffing and soldering the boards .
The relatively small production quantity (we are not talking Audio/TV/Computer market here) does not justify automated equipment.
When I asked the owner why didn't he use regular Technicians, he answered "¿ Why?, I can get EEs for the same price !!!!"
Mind you, they are all in their 20's and early 30's, trying to get a "real" job in the industry, which will look better on their resumes .... er ....... Curriculum Vitaes in some future application.
The option for fresh-out-of-the-oven EEs is some variation of "Sales Engineer" which really is a glorified salesman, decent work but quite unrelated to real Industrial practice.