Component Quality

[trem]

I always read/hear about the "quality" components that are used in high end guitar amps. For reference only, names like Two Rock, Matchless, Carol-Ann, Van Weelden, Fuchs, etc. etc. With the exception of maybe some pretty expensive potentiometers, I do not see any difference between the components used by those builders, and the parts that I use in my kit or "scratch" amps.
For the most part we are talking about capacitors, resistors, and tube sockets. Transformers are usually sourced from about the same 5 makers, there are not that many really. Is it just advertising lingo. or are there parts being used by builders that are not generally available to the "normal" guy who needs amp parts...??
Thank You

[R.G.]

I always read/hear about the "quality" components that are used in high end guitar amps. For reference only, names like Two Rock, Matchless, Carol-Ann, Van Weelden, Fuchs, etc. etc. With the exception of maybe some pretty expensive potentiometers, I do not see any difference between the components used by those builders, and the parts that I use in my kit or "scratch" amps.

You're correct. There's not a huge difference. So far we haven't - yet! - given into the making and hawking of super-hyper-magical parts like the hifi world has, although the huge profit motive is there if we ever give in to it.

Is it just advertising lingo. or are there parts being used by builders that are not generally available to the "normal" guy who needs amp parts...??

The Dark Side of advertising is a never ceasing seduction to someone who's trying to sell something. There are better and worse parts, to be sure. But in all honesty, the parts that usually turn out to be the most consistent are the ones made in the greatest quantity. This was true even back in the day of vacuum tubes.

And in any production process, consistency is to be valued far above a small percentage of magical parts.

There is not a magical hidden secret world of better parts. There is just lesser known and more expensive ones. And I'd bet a significant amount that there's nothing that can be done with the hyper-cost parts that can not, at least in concept, be done with the normal, everyday stuff.

[Chuck H]

+++1, but...

So far we haven't - yet! - given into the making and hawking of super-hyper-magical parts like the hifi world has

Maybe not the designers/builders but there is some of this magic parts ignorance in the buying public that does influence the choices of builders. Thus the ridiculous price of MM iron. I want to use it because it's what players think is best (for no technical reason) but after reading multiple transformer "shootout" threads and posts I don't see MM stacking up to the rep that they earned, how?

This is just one example. There are some smaller ones too. So, designers/builders, no magic voodoo parts. Players and buyers, still susceptible I guess.

Chuck

[stokes]

I think the fact that tone is such a subjective matter,it leaves many people open to "suggestive" improvements.By that I mean like the time I had a guy bring me his Tweed Deluxe and a fistful of Auricaps,he wanted all the coupling caps changed because he read some hi-fi crap about the magic of the Auri's.Instead of trying to convince him of the foolishness of such an act,I took the amp and the caps,called him back two days later and he was blown away by the improvement.I then handed him the caps he thought he wanted installed and told him to leave the amp alone.This was no dopey kid mind you,he was a 54 yr old pro guitarist who you think would know better.I am sure everybody involved with amp repairs and maintenance for any length of time has similar stories.I think,with guitar amps anyway,there may be a difference in using "quality parts" but there is a limit as to how "high" the quality has to be to sound good.I've never heard a "better sounding" $30 cap yet.The usual Mallory's and Spragues are about as high quality as you need in most applications.One of my favorites is the improved tone someone touted selling fuses with gold plated elements.Or the "low capacitance" power cords.Madison Avenue at its best.

[jrfrond]

I actually get pretty sick of hearing the usual suspect names bandied about like there's some friggin' magical formula that is suddenly going to turn everyone into Hendrix, SRV or whoever. Yes, we ALL know Sprague, CTS, Allen-Bradley, Mallory, etc. The fact is, there are OTHER great components out there as well. Panasonic, Taiwan Alpha/Xicon, Bourns, Belton..... all good companies.

And then. there is the cheap shit from deep in the heart of Far East Asia, with names that look like the last 10 letters of the alphabet, that most of the major manufacturers use in their production amps.

[Chuck H]

In fairness I have to say that SOME of the Xicon stuff I use has been great. And some stuff falls short with an audible concequense. I still use the Xicon stuff that "I" have learned works for me. But if I were a noob and unsure of what components to buy I would avoid Xicon and other middle road component MFG's in favor of proven performance. That said, I do think ALL the boutiquish builders are using parts of similar quality and the real dfference at that point is in layout and circuit design.

My real beef is, why are MM trannies getting 2X+ the $$$ of other MFG's for the same parts? Is it because they're painted fire engine red? Or because they are a "tone clone" or some improvement like a "fat stack"?

I deal with Alden at Heyboer and he takes care of me. I tell him what I want and the tranny design ensues. If it needs a fat stack it gets a fat stack. Any proprietary heyboer trannies I've ordered have performed beyond off the shelf units from other MFG's. Including MM.

It's worth noting that if someone competant is designing for your specific project that they can get closer to what you want than off the shelf from other sources.

So in fairness I have never done an apples to apples comparison of the MM product. But an off the shelf MM tranny hasn't impressed me beyond the proprietary trannies Heyboer has been selling me for half the price. Yet the players want MM iron. I think it's because of very careful marketing by MM. Great strategy really. Have you ever seen another magnetics company advertise in a guitar publication??? I have not. And that's all the players and buyers see for transformer hype.

"Paint them bright red and tell them they're great and they will come."

Chuck

[Enzo]

Cool. I'm gonna start selling fancy parts under the Syzygy brand. Phase aligned with the Earth magnetic field.

[Gtr_tech]

I think there's alotta hype created by the end users of these "cork sniffer' aftermarket parts. The ol' "Hey I just paid big bucks for this "******"....so it has to sound great" deal. I'll take a pass on the audio voodoo thanks....just like I pass on Bose and Monster Cable, Kimber Kable, etc. CAn I sell you some clear nail polish that you can paint *everyhting* including pc boards and have magical results? Don't laugh....someone's out there soing just that....

[Gtr_tech]

Cool. I'm gonna start selling fancy parts under the Syzygy brand. Phase aligned with the Earth magnetic field.

And Free Earth shoes with every order!

[TerryEncore65]

I would be leery of any claims about higher-end components, resistors, capacitors etc. or
being unavailable or are "special quality". Before the flaming begins, let me just qualify my statements with the following: years ago I was a radar tech for uncle sam and the way we saw it, a resistor was a resistor, a cap was a cap and so forth.
Some of the attributes given to devices of an "era" are less magic and the product of:
a. the manufacturing process at the time, that is what individual materials were available to make the device.
b. quality control or how far can the component range from the ideal spec. to where we have to fix the machines/process.
c. most of the components mentioned with magical properties were made in batches of anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000's at a time.

Now it is true that you can get components with tighter tolerances 5% instead of 10 or 20% for example. But the original engineer designed the circuit with the components (tolerance included) specified as being suitable with cost/availability in mind.
Do you really need tighter tolerances? IMHO it just doesn't make that much of a difference. But it's your choice, and your pocket.
Tubes on the other hand seem to be made willy-nilly and with much smoke as possible, I think the quality control on tubes has been flushed down the toilet. As if musicians have bottomless pockets. I can maybe see buying matched tubes but my question is: do they stay matched after 25, 100 power cycles, brought in from the cold, taken out in the cold when they're still hot? All electrical components drift out of spec over time and power cycles. Unfortunately, my fellow musicians are unknowing and get sold magic smoke all the time, it really is sad. Yes, there a lot of components made overseas, and if quality control works correctly it shouldn't matter where it is made.
I am hoping that I don't get flamed too badly for this post.

[Chuck H]

I am hoping that I don't get flamed too badly for this post.

On the contrary. In a market (and economy) where the bottom line is paramount there will always be $h!tty components available. These usually reveal themselves before too long. So it's at least important to go with a proven part. Beyond that I really don't think there is as much difference in components as some would claim. There are some parameters that do effect tone in a significant way. We often discuss these particular specs (like ESR and inductance) and the testing results are often posted. But the basic functions don't seem to suffer much between cheap parts (by virtue of large batches by a reputable MFG) and exotic boutique parts. I won't recommend cheap parts from a source without a good reputation.

The Hi Fi biz has been a great source of entertainment for us in regard to market hype due in part to the lack of experience or education by the majority of it's ilk. We continue to have fun with it, laughing at the expense of others. But it is sad that there are people who are marginally as informed taking advantage of the truely ignorant. Welcome to democracy

(I'm not a communist).

Chuck

[Alex R]

- if a part's being made by the million and sold largely to industry then it had better be good. If it's made in small batches and sold into a niche market there are higher chances of its being unreliable. I guess.

Anybody want to buy some magic beans?

[Alex/Tubewonder]

Repackaged electrolytic photo flash capacitors seem to be the latest hype....by a company whose name begins with an S......
As long as majority of buying public is technically ignorant (this means for ever) there will be peddlers of snake oil and secret cure all elixirs.

Seriously, take any catalog of electrolytic capacitors, let's say a Vishay/BC. There's close to a 100 different types. Honestly, do you know how to choose best suited type for your application or do you just get what that well known guy is currently using?
It's funny, knowing that qualified professional help is available for free just a phone call or an email away. It's called FAE - Field Applications Engineer, manufacturers and distributors employ good numbers of them. Use them. They are good and helpful. I know , I used to be one of them.

[Enzo]

Speaking of applications support. I used to work for a small company called Music Systems Inc, now long gone. (Late 1970s) We were in the coin operated amusements industry - jukebox, pinball, video arcade games. We tend to call plastic connectors "Molex" connectors, but Molex is just one brand. Another brand, AMP, is or was one of the largest. Their connectors are used all over the video arcade and jukebox gear.

I could find most of the Molex stuff, but all these AMP connectors had me freaking out. I was pretty naive at the time, I suppose. I called them and told them I was having trouble identifying their connectors and the pins to use in them, not to mention extractor tools and crimpers. I think I was mostly just wanting a detailed catalog. They said they would send a guy by!!!

No kidding? SOon enough their local application/sales rep, a guy who I think normally visited buyers at one of the five or six local General Motors plants, came to our facility. This guy spent over an hour with me, we looked through various pieces of gear so I could show him the sorts of connectors we used. he identified them all, explained the connector series range and their terminology. He checked out the tools we had and what we might need to get. He left me with their general catalog, plus several specific lines catalogs, a couple little exctrator tools, and his card with a please call anytime offer.

I got a pretty good connector education out of that, the guy was great, patient and helpful, and I am sure he knew the moment he walked into the place it was not going to result in a sale for him, at least not anything commissionable. I not long after placed an order for some stocks of various connector housings and pins, and some tools for my tech staff. My couple hundred dollars was a big order to me, and I am sure not much to him. But there they were, the company ready to support their lines anyway.

I am sure some companies won;t even return your calls, but it sure is worth a try.

[Prairie Dawg]

Speaking of applications support. I used to work for a small company called Music Systems Inc, now long gone. (Late 1970s) We were in the coin operated amusements industry - jukebox, pinball, video arcade games. We tend to call plastic connectors "Molex" connectors, but Molex is just one brand. Another brand, AMP, is or was one of the largest. Their connectors are used all over the video arcade and jukebox gear.

I could find most of the Molex stuff, but all these AMP connectors had me freaking out. I was pretty naive at the time, I suppose. I called them and told them I was having trouble identifying their connectors and the pins to use in them, not to mention extractor tools and crimpers. I think I was mostly just wanting a detailed catalog. They said they would send a guy by!!!

No kidding? SOon enough their local application/sales rep, a guy who I think normally visited buyers at one of the five or six local General Motors plants, came to our facility. This guy spent over an hour with me, we looked through various pieces of gear so I could show him the sorts of connectors we used. he identified them all, explained the connector series range and their terminology. He checked out the tools we had and what we might need to get. He left me with their general catalog, plus several specific lines catalogs, a couple little exctrator tools, and his card with a please call anytime offer.

I got a pretty good connector education out of that, the guy was great, patient and helpful, and I am sure he knew the moment he walked into the place it was not going to result in a sale for him, at least not anything commissionable. I not long after placed an order for some stocks of various connector housings and pins, and some tools for my tech staff. My couple hundred dollars was a big order to me, and I am sure not much to him. But there they were, the company ready to support their lines anyway.

I am sure some companies won;t even return your calls, but it sure is worth a try.

When I was working over in K'zoo I had to source tooling for a particular class of turbine engines. One of the tools was a "powerdyne" wrench made by Raymond Engineering. Ordinarily used in very high torque applications-helicopter mast nuts, tank axles...I was only going to buy one, about $5,000 at the time, but I not only got a visit from their field engineer but a couple tickets to a Tigers game. I also sourced equipment from Eaton Lebow for realtime engine torque testing at about the same time-they were excellent people to deal with.