Destinking an old tube amp, Smells like.... 43 yr old cigarette bandmaster

[J M Fahey]

OK, thanks a lot, should have imagined that something strong enough .... would probably be "too strong", period.
Edit: as a chemist, would you dare to imagine what the "smelly" component actually is? Or what is its carrier?
Some oily substance in the tobacco leaf, some tar derivative?
Just thinking aloud.

[olddawg]

I have used some stuff called Graffiti Remover on tolex to some success. Especially if old paint is involved. I've only done it on Fenders though.

[Kazooman]

I don't know exactly what the "smelly" components are, but I do know that I find them very nasty. That is probably because many years ago, in my less than informed youth, I smoked cigarettes for about three years. My wife of forty years this August made me quit after we met in college. I think that former smokers are more sensitive to the odors that non-smokers. Perhaps the odor triggers some long ago memory in our brains that we have been suppressing for a long time.

My "educated guess" is that the odor is due to a variety of what are known as "aromatic amines". Nicotine is a good example of such compounds. Another good example (perhaps not found in tobacco smoke) is skatole. Google that and see what it is found in and what it smells like - hint..... SH*T). There are many related compounds in tobacco and they "boil off" in the smoke as the tobacco burns. The main reason people smoke is that it is a great delivery device for getting nicotine into your system. The nicotine in tobacco is volatilized by the heat of the burning cigarette and you draw it into your lungs (a system with a huge surface area designed to exchange compounds such as oxygen and carbon dioxide - it works for lots of other things too like nicotine, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.). The same volatile compounds are constantly emitted by burning tobacco and they condense out on surfaces when they cool. You have all seen the yellow ceilings in bars and bowling alleys where there are a lot of smokers. This is not some color change in the actual ceiling material, it is a coating of condensed smoke crud. This is what is on the amp. There may well be a number of sulfur containing compounds in tobacco smoke as well (notorious for their foul odor) but I have no knowledge of this. The bottom line for cleaning is that ALL of these classes of compounds would be readily susceptible to oxidation by bleach, ozone, or even the ammonium persulfate we use to etch PCBs. The oxidation reduces their odor and reduces their volatility.

The best way to clean the amp would seem to be try to remove the smoke crap by wiping with cloths or cotton swabs, followed by gentle washing with water or a very gentle solvent (not on components!) such as alcohol, followed by more aggressive treatments such as bleach where it would be tolerated, and finally encapsulating the smell by covering it with shellac of a polyurethane coating.

By the way, I own a 1960's Fender Bandmaster (blonde tolex, oxblood grill cloth, single 12 speaker with the tone ring) that I bought slightly used in 1966. I did remove the front frame with the grille cloth and I did wash it with mild soap and water. It is just fine. I could post pictures. I don't think I would try this with the grill cloth from a modern era amp.

[R.G.]

So do ozone generators really work?
I had to ask since I never have used one...

Hotels and bars have no interest in mojo or rumor. If it didn't work, they wouldn't use it.

Speaking as a chemist I can say that I would be much less afraid of water than I would be of ozone, at least ozone in concentrations high enough to remove the residual smoke condensate from the amp chassis, components, tolex, wood, and grill cloth.

It's not a matter of fear, really. I have run ozone generators for 24 hours in a room with a big cat urine smell. Smell gone, no woodwork, paint, walls, carpet etc. melted or bleached. Ozone *is* a strong oxidizer. I believe fluorine is stronger, but it may be the only stronger one. Can't remember in detail.

However, it's very short lived, and does not get absorbed beyond surfaces for the reason that it *is* so strong, so there is no residual. It has a bulk effect in gasses and in water, where it's used for disinfecting. It's all gone in a matter of minutes when you turn off the generator. It does not "dig in" to surfaces except in quite long exposures. And it does not do anything that long exposure to atmospheric oxygen does not do eventually.

Ozone is a pretty strong oxidant that works to remove odors by chemically reacting with molecules in the air (and/or on surfaces).

Yep. That's what kills odors.

Ozone is very good at attacking rubber and related materials. Anyone who has lived in a smoggy city knows this well since they have seen what it does to rubber parts on cars (door seals, wiper blades, tires, etc.) (I lived in Los Angeles in the '70's - UCLA and Cal Tech - that's where I learned my chemistry among other schools).

8-24 hours in ozone-enhanced air is quite different from the chemical stew that was LA air in the 70s. And the exposure is a bit less than years. It's a surface effect. Don't give it time to bore in.

The OP mentioned that the bleach water he used was "very hard on tolex". It is not the water, it is the bleach, an oxidant. Exposure to enough ozone to chemically react with the smoke condensate would likely do the same.

It would do exactly the same - except that the mass of ozone there is much smaller than the oxidizers in bleach, and its half life in air is quite short. It stops when you want it to, and you don't need to flush it and its chlorine-derivatives out of the surface. Ozone does dull sensitive surfaces over time. So don't give it time. It cuts off quickly. That's good.

I would be very concerned about exposing 43 year old components such as paper caps, cloth wire insulation, etc. to very much ozone.

I would be too if I was soaking them in ozone filled water where I kept the ozone concentration up. On the other hand, it completes its reaction so quickly that it does not soak in. It effectively can't get inside the paper caps (which were wax impregnated and sealed) and insulation. It quits when you turn off the generator and open the windows.

A Careful Person might do short tests: five minutes ozone, open and flush the air. Any hazing? If not, go to 15 minutes? Still OK? Give it 30. Stink going down? If not, you don't have to continue. If yes, and no surface damage, you can do more. Or stop.

It's a controllable experiment.

[J M Fahey]

Thanks a lot, to all of you.
Very interesting ideas. I'll try all of them, when approppriate.
And building anything is almost always easier and faster for me than buying(1), unless it's being given for free across the street, so if somebody wants to post some Ozone Generator schematic ... he's welcome.
(1) unless it uses Plutonium or some equivalent hard to find component.

[Amp Kat]

What's up Slobrain, been awhile since we talked when you helped me build an SLO 100.

I have the same problem only difference is it never stops from playing in some of these clubs and worse is it gets in me and I'm smoke free also. I find that just letting it sit in a room with the AC going over time and spray some air freshener frequently works the best. You can scrub till the cows come home and it ain't going away. Let mine sit smoke free for about a month while we took a break and it eventually went away but that's about over so crap back out again Sat. Think it will over time especially if you get the generator. Hope all is well and hope an SLO is doing ok. Cheers,

[Slobrain]

Hey Kerry,

How’s it going? Are you still playing the SLO amp? Are you still working at Presonus?
I wound up selling mine to a buddy and he was using it up till the time he got sick from Diabetes and hi blood pressure and passed away. Now its sitting at his widows home.
I took a break away from the tube amps and set up a small SS rig to play thru for the last three years. Finally missed the tube sounds and got a Bandmaster Reverb off ebay.

I've done some mods to make it sound a bit better but the smell is bad. I just got thru cleaning the chassis from it to get more of the nicotine smell out.
It sure sounds good to play thru. Makes me want to go back to the clean sounds and learn sound 60s stuff. Are you still doing amp repairs? Man, I can remember all those
12AX7's I bought from Presonus thru you. You really turned me on to a super good deal on that. Thanks again, those lasted a long time and went out on many amps I worked on.
SLO

[R.G.]

Good point, ampkat. If you can dedicate some weeks to destinking, letting it sit in a hot garage, or even attic for a long time will evaporate off the volatiles much more quickly.

[Amp Kat]

Hey Kerry,

How’s it going? Are you still playing the SLO amp? Are you still working at Presonus?
I wound up selling mine to a buddy and he was using it up till the time he got sick from Diabetes and hi blood pressure and passed away. Now its sitting at his widows home.
I took a break away from the tube amps and set up a small SS rig to play thru for the last three years. Finally missed the tube sounds and got a Bandmaster Reverb off ebay.

I've done some mods to make it sound a bit better but the smell is bad. I just got thru cleaning the chassis from it to get more of the nicotine smell out.
It sure sounds good to play thru. Makes me want to go back to the clean sounds and learn sound 60s stuff. Are you still doing amp repairs? Man, I can remember all those
12AX7's I bought from Presonus thru you. You really turned me on to a super good deal on that. Thanks again, those lasted a long time and went out on many amps I worked on.
SLO

Slobrain, I don't have my SLO anymore either but I want to build another one because it was such a nice amp and I miss the clean sound more than anything. Traded mine away kinda and got a Marshal SLX JCM-900 and a Musicman HD130 Combo but someone stole the Musicman so now all I have is the Marshall which I use to gig with. That was a very different an SLO because it had the Menno Vanderveen Plitron Toroidal power tranny and a Marshall Super lead 100 watt 1987 OT in it. Also DC'd the optoisolators with a converter box that mounted to the back so no inside transformer and this amp was quiet and sounded awesome and got compliments on it's tone all the time. Building an AB763 Deluxe Reverb right now but after that I'm going to do another SLO and still have 1 board left and Weber still makes the 6-JSX chassis that Jeff worked so hard at perfecting. Bet many here and SLO builders that still don't know or remember all that stuff that went down and how Ted almost got sued because it was an exact replica when Mike saw it. ha ha that was some stuff there.

Been gone from Presonus for about 10 years but 2 of their workers moved next door to where I have my studio/amp repair room so I get all of the latest and greatest from them. They canned the production facility and sent everything to China just like everyone else is doing because it's the only way to compete. They have some really nice gear out and I have a few Digital interfaces like the Firestudio and they have a new Digital mixer out that is smashing little product and very clean however they use Studio One to record with and I use Sonar X1 with Window7 64 bit and it is sweet. Think they just buy select tubes nows and pass the buck on to the end-user so they don't have all those boxes laying around anymore but yes that was some good deals back then tstl.

Hope you get that amp smell worked out so the ole lady will let you back in the house. Gotta be rough staying in the doghouse for that long.

[Slobrain]

Hey Kerry,

I actually sold my best sounding SLO 100 to Jeff S. some years back. Not sure what he did with it since then. I haven't heard from him or Joe L. in some years.

I wonder if Joe or Jeff are still doing mods or new builds.

I finally got that fender to not stink so much by cleaning the whole chassis tube sockets and all. It still has a funk to it but I 'll have to deal with that...

The sound of it is really good for a bandmaster. Suprisingly the best sounding fender I ever had was one of those 135 watt UL twin reverbs that had a modded output section.
It had TONE...

[Amp Kat]

Think I see Joe L posting around here every now and then but never see Jeff S. You don't have a power supply filter cap board left do you ? Guess I could build my own from fiber or teflon. For sure going to do another one.

Think after you let that amp sit awhile it 's going to be fine and smoke free somewhat it just takes some time. Grill cloth is also a place the smell like to hang around in. I got the crap in my Fender guitar bag and my microphones and F@cking everywhere to be quite honest. They think I smoke in my room where my studio is and I haven't smoked in 5 years.

[Slobrain]

Hey Kerry,

No, All I have left is one main board but no PS board. I used to make these but stopped years back. I still have the press N Peel but haven’t done that in years too.

I can remember back in the mid 90s when I was playing in a house band in Galveston bar and the bar had two air filter systems but still got so smoky that in between sets I would have to go put water in my eyes to keep them from burning while on stage...
I would go home and take a shower and could smell cigarette smell washing off me.

I had forgotten about my gear smelling like that too, even my strats would smell like that. It’s amazing that cigarette smoke can be so bad.

The last three years my mom was alive she smoked heavily inside their house with the window and doors shut and it was so bad my dad got emphysema from the secondary smoke, he was a non smoker. He passed from a brain tumor two years after my mom passed. I always wondered if he got a brain tumor from the secondary smoke.

Just goes to show that cigarette smoke is really bad...

[Ronsonic]

I have always been told not to use pledge on anything wood because it is silicone based. Pledge is to cabinetry like WD40 is to electronics I've always been told.

I'm not talking about the wood, except what gets on the raw pine in the back of the cab. I'm using it for the faceplate, knobs (spray onto a paint brush and go at it) and the tolex. I don't use it for my guitars.

[Mark Hammer]

Can you stick it in the dryer with some Febreze?