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Pro Reverb(pro tube) fender hum...

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  • #16
    I don't expect your DC voltages to be a problem at this point, the amp basucally works, we just have added hum in certain parts. That won;t be the result of DC trouble.

    By the way, you got +36v on pin 8 and only 14v on pin 7. Just to educate yourself to your meter, try this. Instead of measuring the voltage from pin 7 to ground, measure it from pin 7 to pin 8. Now starting with the 36v on pin 8, you can calculate from this new reading what voltage must be on pin 7. I bet it won;t be 14v.

    Normally we think of our meter as an invisible participant. But the meter has an impedance of its own, and that reacts with the circuit, and that causes the artificially low voltage reading on pin 7.

    Now back to the issue at hand.

    Part of the joy/reward/challenge for me in this effort is the solving of the problem without the amp in front of me. A sort of "Look, Ma, no hands" thing. That said, we may soon come to a point where it is hard for me to get you much further along from afar. My thinking here is that the bypassed signal is hum-free, but the hum is present through the loop circuit by the time it gets to WJ8. SO in my head, the hum is either being picked up by the cable at WJ8 or is coming from pin 6 of the tube. SInce it doesn't seem to be present at the cathode of V3, I would not normally expect it to be at pin6, but we should be able to see it. Scope WJ8, we know the hum is there, so what does it look like? The hum signal probably won;t be very large, but it should be traceable. Once you know what it looks like and how much of it there is, go back to pin 6 of V3 and with the scope on AC, how much hum signal is there? And if we have already tried a different V3, we have have we not?, then there is a llimited space for this to come from.

    Q1 is a mute, and it only pulses when you switch channels. Lok bottom center of the page straight down from the send level control. See that little graph with the ;pointy curve on it? That is the "transition mute" waveform, the entire pulse is 60ms long, that is 60/1000 of a second. Your meter won't catch it. All it does is briefly ground off the signal path for a moment when channels are switching. This prevents noises. All other times it sits dormant.

    A relay is nothing more than a switch that is remotely actuated. Ther is a magnet coil inside that does that. The switch contacts are uop in the circuit changing circuit paths to suit. The magnet coil is totally separate from that - the whole point of a relay. FInd the little graph again, now look to the left past the two triangles of U2, and you will see K1-C and K2-C. the symbols look like half a transformer. That is the symbol for an iron core coil - the electromagnet in the relay. SO pin 7 of U1b is driving those two coils. WHen it turns them on, the switch contacts for K1 and K2 up in the amp circuit will transfer to the other state.

    And look down from those a little and see K3, the EFX LOOP relay coil.

    Pots do not control relays. Nothing in the signal path controls a relay, the relays control things in the signal path.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    • #17
      Sounds like you've almost had enough of this. I hoping you can answer a few more questions.

      "the amp basucally works, we just have added hum in certain parts. That won;t be the result of DC trouble."

      yes, it basically works in loop mode, but not in bypass. I measured only 2 watts in bypass and over 60w in loop.

      "measure it from pin 7 to pin 8. Now starting with the 36v on pin 8, you can calculate from this new reading what voltage must be on pin 7. I bet it won;t be 14v."

      I don't understand this. I measured 34vdc on the cathode and 14v on the grid and across the pin 8 and pin7 there's 1.1vdc. How do I calculate the correct voltages on pin 7?

      "Scope WJ8, we know the hum is there, so what does it look like? The hum signal probably won;t be very large, but it should be traceable."

      I scoped WJ8 and there's a small signal, much smaller than the output, but it is exactly the same as pin 6 of V3b. Also, V3 tube has been changed many times by now.

      [ .... ]

      Thanks for explaining the FET and the stuff about the relays, it was very helpful.
      Is there any chance that the bypass mode isn't working because of FX loop IC U3?

      Last night I pulled the board for the first time and resoldered many of the solder joints.

      If it is an issue with V3 is it possible that the tube socket is having trouble? I re-soldered it and check connections of each pin to the pcb connections.

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      • #18
        Pete, I am a very patient man, and I support people trying to learn when I can. My comment was more a matter of I am not sure how much further I can lead you. Not a matter of I am tired of it.

        Not in the order you posted, but...

        The thing with the 14v to ground and 34v to ground but only 1 volt between them. The point of the exercise is to show that your meter is involved in the circuit. It has a resistance. When you measured that 34v to the cathode, your meter rsistance was in parallel with much lower resistances and didn;t affect them much. But when you went to measure the grid, there is a 1 meg - 1 million ohms - resistor from that 34v to the grid. Now you place the meter from that grid to ground, you wind up with that 1 meg and your meter in series across that 34v. FOllow? Well, what if your meter has an internal resistance of "only" 1 meg itself? That means you have the 1 meg resistor and the 1 meg meter in series, and all that is parallel to the 34v. SO the point where the meter and resistor meet - that grid pin - will be about half the voltage, or about 17v. Since your reading is 14v, I'd guess the meter has even lower resistance inside than 1 meg.

        When you meter from pin 7 to pin 8, your 1 meg of meter is in parallel with the 1 meg of resistor, that makes roughly 500k ohms. But since there is almost zero current flowing through that grid, there will be almost no voltage dropped across the resistance. SO the voltage reading across that resistor will be pretty accurate. SO the correct way to find that grid voltage is to measure the cathode voltage, then subtract the voltage across the resistor from it. Even then your meter adds a small error amount, but it is a lot closer thanthe other way.

        And Ohm's Law: 1.1v across that 500k of resistance, (meter and 1 meg resistor in parallel) means ther is about 0.0000022 amps of current. 2 microamps. That isn;t very much.

        In the real world, I measure to ground all the time, I just know that when I get 20 volts less on the grid, it is because of my meter.
        Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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        • #19
          So you have the same hum signature at pin 6 of V3 as at WJ8. OK, is it also at pin 8? Is it also on the B+ side of R42?

          If you find it on pin 8, is it getting past C25 over to WJ6? A bad or disconnected C25 would sure knock your bypass level down.

          If you have swapped V3, and we know by now it has good DC voltages, I'd be more inclided to think somethiing outside the tube was involved.

          IC3 does one job, it turns on the relay coil or not. If the relay switches off and on, the U3 is doing its job. If K3 has a bad contact inside, then K3 is bad, but that won;t involve U3. Imagine your amp sitting on stage, plugged into an outlet strip. And the amp refuses to switch channels. You wouldn;t think the outlet strip was bad from that. I hope.

          You know, Q1 is interesting. You have the hum signal on V3-6, I wonder if it is coming in through the grid. I wouldn;t ground the grid B3-7 due to the DC there. WOuldn't hurt it, but it would make a loud pop. But you can ground off the cathode of D2, which would be shorting across Q1. See if doing that kills the hum. A leaky Q1 COULD introduce noise.
          Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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          • #20
            Thanks for explaining all of this. The cathode of V3 on the schematic says it should be 44v. THis was throwing me. I was going to try and see what my VTVM would read on that grid but it seems to be having trouble, maybe a tube. So I guess you are saying when the circuit like this, a cathode follower, and has voltage on the grid I should be aware of a possible miss voltage reading.

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            • #21
              I tried grounding D2's cathode and the hum didn't die.
              I did some scoping from the input while in bypass and found that the signal definitely changed at the 22K , I think its R39 where it meets Q1. So I changed out Q1 and all is well. Thanks again for all the great help!!

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              • #22
                Very happy to hear that you got it repaired.

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                • #23
                  Yes, me too.

                  Yes, your cathode reading will be fine, but that grid through the large resistance - 1 meg - plus your meter, will lead to confusion. But not any longer, since we learned about it, right?
                  Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                  • #24
                    Let's hope I will have not forgotten what I have learned ; )

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                    • #25
                      What you should retain from the lesson, Grasshopper, is how to go about finding the problem. What the part turns out to be doesn;t matter.
                      Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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