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Fender Champ (1978) Arcing in 6V6

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  • Fender Champ (1978) Arcing in 6V6

    Hi,

    I have a 1978 Fender Vibro Champ; I've had it for about 30 years. I used to use it all the time but it died at one point and I put it aside (25 years ago). Recently I got into playing with tubes and pulled the thing out. After measuring all the voltages I found the power transformer was bad so I replaced that with a new Hammond 291AX (according to Hammond a better version of the 290AX). I also found a tube tester at a local antique store and bought it for testing tubes. One of the 12AX7's was bad so I replaced both of them with new tubes. I also put in a "bigger bottle" JJ 5Y3S. I had on hand an old Ruby tubes 6V6 as well as an EH 6V6, both good. After replacing the PT the amp came back to life and I've been using it as a bench amp testing some guitar effects I"m working on. After using the amp I remembered one of the reasons I stopped using it; if you turn it up past 4 or so it will "go quiet" during play. I figured just couldn't push it that hard. The other night it went quiet and smoke came out...

    I opened it up and the 25uF across the bias resistor on the 6V6 had exploded and the 1K resistor at the top of the voltage divider had burned. I figured ok, screw it, I'll replace all the old caps (they may have been dry after all these years anyway). I got some new Vishay caps (replaced them all) with a higher temp rating (105 degree instead of the 85 that were in there, doesn't do anything other than maybe extend the life a bit) and replaced the 1K, 1 W with a 1K 2W. After checking everything out (all voltages correct etc.) it fired back up. As I was playing it I was watching the tubes as I turned it up. I saw that the "going quite" is actually an arc inside the 6V6. I'd say it's the tube but it doesn't matter what I put in there (the Ruby, EH or a couple of others I've got hanging around), it does this. Anyone seen this before and know what's causing it? I haven't modded the amp at all; been waiting to muck about with opening the NFB resistor etc. but not doing anything until the amp stops doing this other thing. I also recall seeing on a site (can't find it now) that the "stock" biasing may have been off from the factory and there are better values.

    UPDATE EDIT: I f'd up when replacing these caps. I replaced them with the same values as shown on the board. I admit I didn't look at the voltage on the schematic and didn't measure it myself. The original cap was a 25uF, 25V. The schematic says "+21V" and the amp meaures +28V. Ok, someone please tell me who spec'd these in the first place? You NEVER rate a component like this; twice the supply voltage is minimum. So I'll be replacing this one (again) with a 50V cap... does this explain the arcing?



    Thanks,

    Mike T.
    Last edited by mtripoli; 10-16-2011, 04:21 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by mtripoli View Post
    ... I remembered one of the reasons I stopped using it; if you turn it up past 4 or so it will "go quiet" during play. I figured just couldn't push it that hard. The other night it went quiet and smoke came out...
    Mike,
    The stress on the power tube doesn't normally increase when a Champ is turned up to 4 and the voltage levels on the tube shouldn't be changing so the arcing, I'd say, is caused by something else going on. Since the amp has always done this my first thought is that the amp is going into high frequency self oscillation when you turn up past 4. This is not a common problem in a Vibro Champ but we shouldn't rule out anything. There could be a construction mistake in the original factory build.

    Questions. Can you:
    1) Tell us what part smoked?
    2) Get the amp working and scope the output as you turn up past 4?
    3) Post photos of the wiring layout?
    4) After the amp is working you could disconnect the feedback loop temporarily and determine if the problem stops occurring when turned up past 4.

    Please give the above a try and report back.

    Tom

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mtripoli View Post
      UPDATE EDIT: I f'd up when replacing these caps. I replaced them with the same values as shown on the board. I admit I didn't look at the voltage on the schematic and didn't measure it myself. The original cap was a 25uF, 25V. The schematic says "+21V" and the amp meaures +28V. Ok, someone please tell me who spec'd these in the first place? You NEVER rate a component like this; twice the supply voltage is minimum. So I'll be replacing this one (again) with a 50V cap... does this explain the arcing?...
      Mike,
      I just saw your edit.
      I don't believe the 25V cap rating is causing the acing. Remember that it's been going on for over 25 years.
      Yes, Fender underrated that part and they got away with it in the Vibro Champ and several other models. The voltage across the cap is higher today due to the increase in line AC voltage. Experienced techs use 50V parts when replacing that cathode bypass cap.
      Tom
      Last edited by Tom Phillips; 10-16-2011, 05:00 PM. Reason: Typos

      Comment


      • #4
        The going quiet & exploding 6V6 cathode bypass cap are most likely coincidence. As you have discovered. this cap was probably running over voltage (though whatever the voltage rating, it was past its best some time ago) and a 50v, or 100v cap is a good idea.

        The stock biasing is adequate, you are free to rebias cooler but keep an eye on cap voltages ratings.

        I wasn't aware that JJ made a big bottle 5Y3? Double check this, most folk use NOS US 5Y3 which are cheap & still in plentiful supply.

        It might be useful to monitor dc voltages during the "quietness", but I would check the dc resistance of the OT primary (red to blue wire) or check the turns ratio by applying a small AC voltage (0.5 to 1VAC measured?) to the OT secondary and checking voltage developed at the primary (test conducted with amp unplugged from the wall, speaker & power tube removed). If the bypass cap shorted it would have pulled a lot of current through the power tube may have been too much for the OT

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks guys for the input. Just got back in and it's late. I'll take some pictures and put the scope on this and see what I find.

          Thanks again!

          Comment


          • #6
            I have encountered this before, especially when pushing a Champ harder than it was designed for. The cure I found was to replace the power supply resistor that feeds the 6V6 screen with a higher value. I believe the stock value is 1K 1W. Try a 4.7K or even a 10K. This will keep the screen voltage below the plate voltage - otherwise the screen can try to hog the current and cause the internal arcing you are seeing. This could be a result of a poorly designed output transformer, but a resistor is the quick easy fix.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, I ran a 1Vp-p, 1kHz sine wave through it and looked at the signals on the scope. Everything looked fine until I turned it up and the tube started arcing inside (A Ruby tube). I pulled it and tested it and it was fine (An old Accurate Instrument Tube Tester 257). I expected to see some shorts, nothing. I have an old "TV repair man" case full of tubes and there was an old 6V6 in there. I don't know what the scale on the meter "actually" reads but the Ruby values were higher than the "old tube" (it has an "M" with a "V" crown kind of logo, don't know what that is). I put the "new old" tube in and cranked it up and no arcing, nothing. So, as Rick says (thanks for the info Rick, I had actually read this somewhere else as well), can the Ruby and the EH tube both have more gain than the amp was designed for "at the time" and if I want to use higher gain tube need to re-bias the amp. I'm actually not unhappy with the way the amp sounds with the "lower gain" tube. I hammered on it pretty good and it hasn't arced... I *think* the OT is fine ( I almost bought one today but held off). I did however order higher voltage caps...

              Also, after messing with it a bit I lifted the NFB resistor and played with it a bit. I don't know that without switching it in and out I could qualify "exactly" what I think. I've heard terms like "more open" and such but I'm not sure. I'm not putting any holes in this thing so I'll have to dangle a switch somewhere and play around with this...

              Thanks again for the help.

              For what it's worth if you need some tubes tested and willing to pay postage both ways I can test them for you. As I said I don't know "what" the meter is reading (it has "BAD", "?" and "Good" with a numbered scale under that. Don't know if that number scale is arbitrary, gain or what.


              Mike T.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mtripoli View Post
                Well, I ran a 1Vp-p, 1kHz sine wave through it and looked at the signals on the scope. As I said I don't know "what" the meter is reading (it has "BAD", "?" and "Good" with a numbered scale under that. Don't know if that number scale is arbitrary, gain or what.


                Mike T.
                For most tests, it's measuring gain (higher# = higher gain). Does your meter have a manual? It will usually say in the operating instructions what typical values you should see. On mine "100" is the ideal rating for any setting, any tube, but my friend has one that specifies in the manual that anything "over 22" is considered good for a 12ax7.

                If you don't have a manual, you could probably find one online.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for the feedback Mike. As it turns out a guy posted a video using this exact tester on Youtube (Accurate Instrument Model 257 Tube Tester Demonstration - YouTube). He doesn't talk throughout and the music is pretty bad... Anyway, I do have the manual but no "good" numbers. If you watch the video you can see the scale. Interestingly enough there is a link to his page with full schematics of the tube tester. An enterprising person could in fact build one for "just guitar amp tubes"...

                  Just saw this tube tester on eBay for $10.00 starting price (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ham-...ht_3076wt_1397). Mine is in perfect shape, this one looks a little beat up. I saw a "MaxiMatcher" for $600.00...wow...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Are you using the original 3.2R speaker? Or at least a 4 Ohm replacement?

                    Champs will have arcing problems with 8 Ohm speakers.

                    Is there arcing at the socket? Are there any traces from arcing on it, look close with bright light.
                    My rants, products, services and incoherent babblings on my blog.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ronsonic View Post
                      Are you using the original 3.2R speaker? Or at least a 4 Ohm replacement?

                      Champs will have arcing problems with 8 Ohm speakers.

                      Is there arcing at the socket? Are there any traces from arcing on it, look close with bright light.
                      Interesting - I was having arcing in my champ (which I built) using an 8 ohm speaker - also only with the gain cranked up. I assumed it was a bad power tube so I replaced the EHX 6v6 with a JJ and no more problems.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The JJs seem to not be quite like other 6V6 and I'm suspecting that the impedance mismatch might not be as bad.

                        The problem with 8 Ohm speaks in a Champ is sorta old and pretty well known. It's a little counter-intuitive that such a small simple amp would be more sensitive to mismatched Z than other designs. But apparently running that tube at the ragged edge is a factor.
                        My rants, products, services and incoherent babblings on my blog.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I had replaced the original speaker eons ago with an 8 inch 3.2 ohm speaker. I've been using it with the (what I think is) a Mullard tube and no more arcing, it goes to ten nicely. HOWEVER, (don't laugh) it now distorts quite nicely IF you want an amp that distorts when you turn it up. I however had in mind to use this next to my bench for testing effects (one of which is a "new" (yeah, yeah, I know...)) distortion pedal. I obviously can't have the amp distorting "on its own" to test my distortion pedal...so, suggestions on making it cleaner at higher levels? At "10" its ok, but right now it starts to distort much earlier (its late and I cant fire it up to see where it distorts). I really don't want to do it, but I have a Class D based on a TI TAS5630 (dual 150W) that I built I *could* use but I'd rather use the Champ...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Unfortunately, loud and clean isn't a trick that the champ is know for... The 8 inch speaker probably doesn't help. Maybe try a more efficient speaker?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Same thing here

                              Originally posted by mtripoli View Post
                              I put the "new old" tube in and cranked it up and no arcing, nothing. So, as Rick says (thanks for the info Rick, I had actually read this somewhere else as well), can the Ruby and the EH tube both have more gain than the amp was designed for "at the time" and if I want to use higher gain tube need to re-bias the amp.
                              Hey there!

                              I recently built a 1950's gibsonette GA-8 clone and got extreme weird distortion when I got to about 4 in the volume. I kinda new the problem was on the power tubes (two JJ 6V6-S), due to some previous messing around. I tried a lot of stuff, and nothing worked. Until I decided to try an old 6V6GT I had lying around... Voilá! Perfect sound even cranked to max. No noticeable arcing.

                              I have roughly the same voltages stated in the schematics:
                              http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...-annotated.jpg

                              I'm still wondering why the arcing occured on the other, more recent, tubes.

                              Nice to know I'm not alone on this!

                              Comment

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