Ebay disaster, tech advice needed please.

[greengriff]

I sold my amp on ebay, in perfect condition. I get an email from the buyer saying that the amp arrived with a broken power valve (i.e. smashed glass) and that he wanted a full refund. He said the package arrived fine and the amp showed no sign of physical damage. In 20 years of playing (and dropping!) amps I've never had a smashed valve, so that's strange in itself.

I asked him to bring the amp to me, which he did. When I saw it it was still in perfect undamaged condition, but the top of one power valve was indeed broken off. Also the HT fuse was blown. When I asked the buyer about this he insisted he'd "never even plugged the amp in", thereby exposing himself as a liar right off the bat, so I refused the take the amp back. However it's not me that needs convincing, but ebay and their dispute service. I'm beginning to wonder if he smashed the valve, as doing so would give him the perfect excuse to have "not plugged the amp in". If he admitted to plugging the amp in then that would undermine his case somewhat. Maybe I'm being too paranoid

Anyway my questions to you guys, are:

1. Have you ever seen a valve physically blow it's top off in use and if so what was the cause?

2. Have you ever seen a valve lose it's top when an amp has been dropped?

All replies very much appreciated!

[Steve Conner]

The postal service can break anything, especially valves.

Proper packing of a valve amp for shipping means unplugging all of the valves and packing them separately, in a giant wad of bubble wrap inside the cabinet, with instructions on which sockets they go in. If you don't do that, all bets are off.

I'd replace the blown tube and the HT fuse and see if it works. If so, just let the guy keep the replacement tube and fuse.

The Ebay dispute service normally sides with the buyer, so you probably don't want to let it get to that stage.

[Prairie Dawg]

Buying and selling amps on fleabay reminds me of eating out of a dumpster or patronizing a woman of easy virtue. There's a high level of risk involved and the chances for a buyer of getting somebody's problem from 3,000 miles away is real. You simply have to know what you're getting into.

Refund the dude's money, fix the amp and sell it to someone else because you're not going to win this fight. All i hear is "he said, she said".

[greengriff]

The postal service can break anything, especially valves.

Proper packing of a valve amp for shipping means unplugging all of the valves and packing them separately, in a giant wad of bubble wrap inside the cabinet, with instructions on which sockets they go in. If you don't do that, all bets are off.

I'd replace the blown tube and the HT fuse and see if it works. If so, just let the guy keep the replacement tube and fuse.

The Ebay dispute service normally sides with the buyer, so you probably don't want to let it get to that stage.

I'm presuming they wouldn't believe the courier blew the HT fuse, but you're no doubt right about their buyer-bias. I put in a new fuse and some known good valves and when the amp was switched on all that resulted was a lot of humming and a little bit of guitar sound that faded in and out. If the HT fuse hadn't been blown I would just take the guy's word for it that he never plugged it in, but I can't abide liars!

As an aside then, have you ever seen a valve explode during use or misuse of an amp?

[Steve Conner]

Valves have a vacuum inside, so it's not possible for them to explode from electrical abuse. If you overload them gratuitously for a long time, the glass can melt and implode, but that has a very distinctive appearance:


To sum up: I have no doubt that the valve got smashed in shipping. However I'm pretty sure your buyer did in fact plug it in.

Maybe the best way out is to give the refund, take your amp back, and then file a claim for damages with your courier. However some couriers can give you a nightmare over that too. I heard that the like of UPS might require the amp to be destroyed, whereas I guess you'd probably rather have them pay for the repairs.

So then again, maybe you can repair the amp and persuade the buyer to take it back?

[52 Bill]

This is probably not one that you can win. You may never know the real story.

If the blown fuse is blackened inside the glass, then plugging in and turning on the amp is the only way that I know of to have that happen. If the center element is broken or the fuse is just open, then there could be a case made for physical damage from dropping or vibration.

As for the broken tube, was there anything loose in the back of the amp, like the ac cord or a long speaker cable, etc.? What sort of tube retainers are used if any to hold down the power tubes?

Personally, I've never seen a tube shatter from any sort of normal usage, I've seen them melt and deform and in odd cases I've seen them crack and lose vacuum, but never do what you describe.

Ebay's policy is to back up the buyer in nearly all cases. Unless you sell asis with no returns, etc. they will pretty much stick the seller with any after sale problems. You may have to just use this as a learning experience.

[AtomicMassUnit]

All the risk is on the seller when using Ebay, unfortunately. Obviously the guy turned it on before he discovered the tube was broken. They are likely to get broken if left installed in the amp during shipping. I'd recommend a refund, get the amp repaired, and resell at that point. If not you'll probably have a long, drawn out fight with the guy/ebay and lose anyway. It's really a bad situation as a seller. When I use ebay, I hold the money until I can verify that it's all good, because I've been burned a few times, and always as a seller... even had a guy return a marshall cab insisting it was 'broken', got it back in perfect shape, working, and had to eat $90 on shipping. It's a nightmare. And fighting with UPS/Fedex is just as bad. Not worth it!

[defaced]

I don't think you'll win. Here's a recent exchange with a music related purchase that, IMO, was way more cut/dry than what you have and the sell still had to do the return: Login

I'd do the return, repair the amp, and sell it to someone else. Problem buyers are not worth it.

[Prairie Dawg]

Look for a burned screen resistor. What you have was a shorted tube that took out the B+ fuse. If you have a normal amp, that is. If you've got something that is using the filament supply for low voltage service then all sorts of other problems may be headed your way. What kind of amp is it?

[überfuzz]

You did tell him that the fuse was blown, did you?

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Ebay is close to being out of control with their near 10% fee base and pushing hard to have you use their also owned, 5% fee based Paypal.
They will not side with you as a seller unless is was sold as is, used or for parts only.

So, I'm with the other guys... your buyer has "buyer's remorse" and absolutely does not want the amp.
Something else happened between him getting it, blowing the fuse and freaking out about it and any other personal stuff around the buyer during that time.
Yes, he most assuredly plugged the amp in with a broken tube and it blew the fuse because of that.

If there was no shipping/handling charges involved, take it back with a refund and relist it the next day with *New Tubes*.
Lots of other buyers were probably watching the auction and still looking for one.
Document any defects before hand, of course, and take pictures of every little thing you can think of that someone could complain about you not saying anything about before selling it.

[rjb]

Just in case the others haven't been blunt enough, let's summarize the thread so far:

The postal service can break anything, especially valves.

Proper packing of a valve amp for shipping means unplugging all of the valves and packing them separately, in a giant wad of bubble wrap inside the cabinet, with instructions on which sockets they go in. If you don't do that, all bets are off.

A sudden impact can easily break valves without causing external visible damage. This is common knowledge.

Yes, he most assuredly plugged the amp in with a broken tube and it blew the fuse because of that.

Which is only human nature. How many people would open a newly acquired amp and check all the innards before plugging in?


In conclusion:
I'm sorry, Mr. Griff, but you screwed up.
You packed the amp incorrectly, and the valve broke in transit.
As a responsible seller, you should have known better.
Please get off your high horse about the buyer being "a liar"; the amp wouldn't have broken if you had packed it correctly.
Do the right thing and give the guy his money back.
Extra credit: Apologise.


Later,
Ralph "Social Skills" Barthine

[kg]

so you shipped him the amp, but then he brought it back to you?

why not just do a local pick up in the first place?

[J M Fahey]

Intresting point, but it's too late to worry about that.
I ask for pizza to be delivered, even from 100 yards door to door.
I sell a lot through our version of EBay, and guys 20 minutes away ask for the amps to be delivered, also ask to pay on delivery.
Everybody claims to be "too busy to pick it up".
First I said no, now I quote outrageous fees and demand advance deposit in full, including the outrageous shipping price and the deal breaker clause: shipping will be delayed up to 3 working days pending deposit accreditation.
They usually are at my door 1 hour later.
Or next day ... cash in hand.