Am I going to Hell?

[MarkusBass]

I'm with Juan - you shouldn't specify the cost of parts in this case. The reason why you couldn't sleep the previous night was that you charged $15 for a part that costed $0.1. The problem is that in some cases you should specify the cost of the parts used (e.g. when replacing output transformer in a tube amp, or a speaker) but in other cases you shouldn't do it. And you have to judge yourself in which cases you do it, and in which you don't. For example, lately I was fixing Apogee Duet recording interface with very common problem (hum on the output), which I found out that no one in the world (except Appogee service in the US) managed to fix. It took me 3 days to find out that the reason for the failure were several 0402 SMD resistors that were open. The cost of the resistors was something like $0.03 but in that case it wouldn't make sense to specify the cost of the parts to the customer. It's because I had to order 100 pcs of the resistor and I spent few days finding the problem. Additionally, I had to replace several 0402 resistors in a very tight space (not everyone can do it). The alternative was to send the interface to the US but this was so expensive that buying a new interface would be cheaper.
The conclusion is that specifying the cost of the parts in all possible cases is a bad habit. Sometimes the cost of the part is $0.01 but you work on the amp 3 days and you are the only one who knows which part out of thousands needs to be replaced. And you charge the customer for that knowledge and not for the part.

Mark

[Dave H]

Additionally, I had to replace several 0402 resistors in a very tight space (not everyone can do it).

You can say that again! I've just soldered in about 80 x 0603 parts. That's the last time I volunteer to assemble any boards with parts that small (I can't imagine working with quantum sized 0402). You have to order hundreds to allow for the ones that flirt out of the tweezers never to be seen again.

[eschertron]

Op amp hell? Nah, this guy got your spot...
Vintage Original JRC4558D Op Amp Chip Ibanez TS 808 TS 9 Tube Screamer Effects 606559031153 | eBay

If the USED chips go for that, imagine what the asking price could be for a NOS dual op amp.

[drewl]

Op amp hell? Nah, this guy got your spot...
Vintage Original JRC4558D Op Amp Chip Ibanez TS 808 TS 9 Tube Screamer Effects 606559031153 | eBay

Ha, one customer/friend/collector freaked when I told I have a bunch of those.

I gave him one for his TS I fixed.

[nsubulysses]

I try to have a pretty detailed invoice so people can think what they want, but at least know all that was done, what parts and how many. It usually means nothing to them since they don't know anything about electronics but it makes them feel good because it seems honest.

ANyway, what's funny is when people pay the estimate. Happens every once in a while and kind of makes me laugh -- it means they never even looked at the invoice I emailed them. I say something like, "hey, this is about $70 to make it work, about $150 for new tubes to work good and put out full power." The invoice is $157 or something, they come to pick it up with a big grin and hand me $150 and thank me a few times for helping them.

I dont' mind. I get tipped way more often than someone paying the estimate and usually shortchanging me a few dollars.

[Enzo]

I itemized parts, because the State of Michigan requires me to charge sales tax on parts. I COULD not charge for parts and consider them part of the repair, in which case the State of Michigan requires me to pay use tax on the parts I buy. The exception is when I buy my parts at retail and pay tax on them then.

No one ever asks me what I paid for the parts I marked up. On the other hand, when I pay $150 for some Marshall transformer, I do point out to the customer that this is a $300 transformer, but I gave them a discount at $200 or whatever.

If you invest in company by buying their stock, I imagine you want some return on that investment. You don't buy a $100 stock hoping to sell it next year for $100. My parts are no different. I invest in my parts supply, expecting them to turn a profit for me.

[J M Fahey]

Nah , used is better

Our friend Dumb ass bob bought an old war torn "house amp" from Chinese Theater or some similar iconic 60´s Rock place in or near LA, payed a fortune for it and then spent extra U$6500 having it (unsuccessfully) restored to its former glory with Guru "GW" , all because the shady night watchman or whatever who sold it said in a creepy voice and rising his eyebrows: "kiddo, you know WHO used this amp, don´t you?".
He left "who" unfilled, so anybody adds (imagines) his wildest dreams.

By the way, a similar technique was used successfully by HP Lovecraft, who never clearly describes his monsters, but lets you imagine them.
Good trick

[olddawg]

I itemized parts, because the State of Michigan requires me to charge sales tax on parts. I COULD not charge for parts and consider them part of the repair, in which case the State of Michigan requires me to pay use tax on the parts I buy. The exception is when I buy my parts at retail and pay tax on them then.

No one ever asks me what I paid for the parts I marked up. On the other hand, when I pay $150 for some Marshall transformer, I do point out to the customer that this is a $300 transformer, but I gave them a discount at $200 or whatever.

If you invest in company by buying their stock, I imagine you want some return on that investment. You don't buy a $100 stock hoping to sell it next year for $100. My parts are no different. I invest in my parts supply, expecting them to turn a profit for me.

CA always required us to itemize parts AND we were required by law to return the bad parts to the customer. Nowadays the powers that be aren't well staffed so it's kind of moot. I haven't heard of a shop being shut down by the bureau for a while. Back in the height of the VCR/TV days it happened left and right. My old employer did lots of crazy stuff. Double billing by adding parts to warranty invoices that they already billed once for an out of warranty repair. Padding invoices with parts that techs blew up. Lots of games. Sometimes the billing invoice was entirely different than my work invoice. I never noticed until I got a callback and saw the billing invoice. I quit after a while. Bothered me.

[nickb]

CA always required us to itemize parts AND we were required by law to return the bad parts to the customer. Nowadays the powers that be aren't well staffed so it's kind of moot. I haven't heard of a shop being shut down by the bureau for a while. Back in the height of the VCR/TV days it happened left and right. My old employer did lots of crazy stuff. Double billing by adding parts to warranty invoices that they already billed once for an out of warranty repair. Padding invoices with parts that techs blew up. Lots of games. Sometimes the billing invoice was entirely different than my work invoice. I never noticed until I got a callback and saw the billing invoice. I quit after a while. Bothered me.

You know, components that get blown up are paid for by the customer somehow or another. If it's done via the hourly rate then all customers are paying, even if the component was not used on their job - is that fair? Sometimes it is part of the diagnostic process. An example might be a FET on a SMPS where original one failed as the snubber cap was bad. You only go looking further when the replacement fails. It's a tricky area with no good answers.

[Enzo]

Sometimes you have to risk new parts to find out if more is wrong. I have no trouble charging a customer for all the parts it took to get it running, even if all of them do not wind up in the amp when he leaves. I still had to use those parts in his amp.

You are going to get a bill from the ambulance whether grandpa dies in the ER or not.

[Leo_Gnardo]

One advantage of the itemized bills, I have a record (on hard drive and on paper) of all the parts that went into a repair. Should I see the same equipment again, can easily call up a reminder of what it was I did last time, plus any observations I may have recorded on the invoice.

[g1]

For little stuff that I don't have, I use a minimum parts charge that includes the flat rate shipping charge from mouser or digikey. Itemized as "minimum parts charge (incl. shipping)". Here that flat rate is $8, so $10 minimum will cover a simple IC or several resistors etc.

[octal]

One advantage of the itemized bills, I have a record (on hard drive and on paper) of all the parts that went into a repair. Should I see the same equipment again, can easily call up a reminder of what it was I did last time, plus any observations I may have recorded on the invoice.

The other reason to record parts is if a similar but different parts fails later (i.e. you replaced a dead power transformer, a few months later the customer runs the amp without a speaker connected and fries the output transformer... brings it in and when you tell them it needs a transformer "but you just changed that! etc.") Having a written record the customer sees will give you something to base your explanation on about how this is a different part, how it's an unrelated part of the amp etc. Of course, that depends on how sophisticated the customer is and how good you are at explaining the scenario on their technical level. The other option is to just charge a ridiculous amount at the outset and offer a "bumper-to-bumper" warranty, planning your pricing so that on average you make a solid profit, even if the occasional warranty come back (even for a fault totally unrelated to the original repair) is a big money loser.

[mac dillard]

Quiet the discussion. Think I have seen some of this before. My opinion for what it is worth (not anything). I live in a rural area and it cost me min of $45 to ship an amp one way to the closest authorized repair center. I have built several amps over the years and there are a lot of players around here that will bring me an amp to repair. Some I do, some I don't according to what they are. I say all of this to show that I know a little about amps, repair and component cost. If I sent out an amp for repair and was charged $15 ($10 for the part and $5 for shipping) for a part that sells for $1.50 I would be a very unhappy customer. Now to be charged up to $100 min for inspection and labor I would live with. Most repair folks that I have had this discussion with state that they make their $ off of their labor, they don't make it off of parts..A 2 or 3 times mark up(for a low cost item) ok, but no 10X. JMO

[Enzo]

It depends on the part. I charge a minimum of $4 for an IC. Some cost me 50 cents, others cost me $2. But I have drawers I bought, and shelves I bought to keep them in, and the time to shop for those parts, and the time my money was tied up in them before I made money. So $4 for a 50 cent part is an 8x markup, and I don;t apologize. Transistors are a dollar minimum. I pay as little as 4 cents for a transistor when I buy them by the hundred. Now $4 is not a lot of money, but at A-mark (double the cost) I have to sell half of that hundred to break even. And now expand that to the 50 other types of transistor sharing that drawer unit... I got 4 cent transistors, and I have 60 cent transistors, all selling for a dollar. If they cost more, then the price rises as well. I pay $4.50 for MJ15024 maybe. I might sell one or two for $8 each If I sell a set of ten I might not charge $80, maybe I charge only $60. I am considering the rest of the repair, what I make on ALL the parts in it, and how much labor is involved.


I do make my living off of labor. I might have a serious blown up thing, and get a large parts bill along with hefty labor, but most repairs wind up labor only or labor and a few small items. A dual 31 band graphic EQ needs one 7815. Some amp needs an op amp. How many amps have come in needing one new jack? Big parts bills are the exception, not the rule.

Jacks, $4 each. Some cost me 75 cents, some cost $3. I lucked out a few years back and scores a bag of 100 of the little basic black Jalco jacks for $18. SO I am making a good markup from 18 cents to $4, but I bought that bag 15-20 years ago.


And here is a trick of the trade:
Don;t write $5 on your invoice. Write $4.92 or $5.06. If I write a nice round number, it invites someone being clever and thinking "This asshole charged me $5 for something cheap." But an odd number like $4.92 automatically looks more credible, looks like I looked it up somewhere. You can use the same trick in selling some concept. If you tell an audience for your idea that it will cost about $10,000 they think yeah yeah yeah. But if you tell them it should cost about $10,450, then it sounds like you used real actual thinking to come up with it.

Ever shop at Wal Mart? They do that all the time. Price on soap is $2.82 rather than the common $2.89. Some other thing is $1.36. Makes you think they calculated some razor thin profit margin... Nah, it's marketing.

I have had darn few people beef individual parts on a bill over the decades.

And there is always this ploy:
I charge a guy $100 for some speaker, and he gripes that he could order it online for $75. I tell him "OK, order it from them and give it to me, and I will refund your part price." They never do.