Need some advice on pricing out repair/service jobs

[SoulFetish]

I would like to start taking in more repairs and getting a legit service business up and running. I have the basic essentials for diagnostic tools together. I have the space to do the work safely. I can sit around and think about electronics all day, but I need the experience that you can only get by experience.
But, honestly, I don't have much experience or practical reference to go on for pricing out bench time, flat rates for a service, parts, etc. I will say that where I live (just south of Boston) has a high cost of living, though.
I was running sound for a show last night and a guys amp had a scratchy, intermittent volume pot. I smiled and told him he needs to get that fixed, but it's usually a pretty routine job. He asked me if I can take care of it for him and he just wants it done "right". Without a second though I responded "of course I can fix that for you". When he asked me how much it would cost, I realized that I had no clue how to give him a professional estimate - A fair cost of labor and parts resulting in a happy customer and a profit for services rendered.
So, to the fellas who work as experienced techs. Can you give me a quick run down on how you guys do it?

[Enzo]

We have had MANY conversations about this here, do some searching.

What is a legit business to you? Are you working from your home, or are you thinking of working from a commercial property - a storefront or a warehouse? You already own/rent your home, but moving to a commercial property - a proper shop as it were - is a large step. If your rent is $500, $1000, whatever a month, think how many repairs you must do just to cover that.

You plan to do this, period? or do you want to come home from work, spend a few hours making extra cash in the evenings?

I am glad to be out from under my shop rent, in my retirement. How will you get the work? People come drop it off? SOme store worked out a deal for customers to drop off there?

In my shop I had a one hour minimum labor. I was charging $60, thinking about $75. SOme areas charge less and some a lot more. I know a long time ago I was charging $45, and a shop across town was charging $25-30. But I also noticed my estimates were largely for an hour labor, and for similar repairs he was estimating 3-4 hours. Do the math.

It is your business, so you can be flexible. I have an hour minimum, but I don't apply it to something like rewiring the connector on a microphone, or swapping out the jack on a strat. If I see a 32 channel mixer or something, I might have a two hour minimum, after all, to check out every function on a large mixer takes a long time. And I am pretty efficient at it.

What are the comparables in your area? WHo does similar repairs, and what do they charge? If everyone else charges $45, I better have a good reason to ask $60. On the other hand, if everyone charging $60, I am throwing money away if I ask $30.

People are paying you for more than your time. Included in your bill is the fact you have a facility to do the work in, you have a bench and sufficient equipment to do the work, you have invested in and stock a reasonable supply of common parts, so you can complete most or many repairs in prompt fashion. You don;t have to order each jack and resistor you may need. Included is your knowledge and enough experience to know what to do, and to not screw it up further. And to be resourceful enough to get what you need beyond what you have already.

What am I yapping about? Don't bite when someone says,"WHAT??? You charge me $45 to just replace a jack?" Or they think that if they paid $30 for a small amp, then any repairs should also be as cheap. My time is my time, regardless of what your thing is worth.

I had thousands of dollars invested in parts, damn few things I had to order for most work. I need those parts to generate profit. I have certain minimal prices. I charged $4 for a jack, doesn't matter if it was a little Jalco jack for a ROland that I spent 18 cents for, or a $2 Fender jack. IF it was something unusual that cost me more than $3, sure I would go over $4. I charge $4 minimum for an IC. SO all those 40 cent op amps or 50 cent logic chips - $4. Small transistors are a dollar. I bought MPSA05, 2N4401, 2SC1815, whatever by the 100. Typical cost in 100 lot is 5-30 cents. I charge a dollar. TO220s maybe $3-4. Something like MJ15003 that cost me $4-5, I charge $8. Big stuff like transformers, I was kinder. If I paid $100 for one, I probably don't charge $200, more like $150. I don't have to justify my parts prices, I think they are fair, but I always point out that they got that $200 transformer for only $150.

Think about some old Fender head or combo. How long would it really take to pull the chassis, squirt Deoxit in all the controls and swab out the jacks with a Qtip, make sure everything is tight and all functions work? Can you do that in an hour? I hope so, in fact I hope a lot faster than that. SO if a guy needs basic maintenance, I'd quote him an hour. If it seems otherwise for you, then quote otherwise, but in an hour, I expect I can do maintenance, check operation, and determine if any actual repairs are needed. I can then present to the customer a list of what work it needs if any.

[Mick Bailey]

My immediate thought when pricing up work is to categorize the job and to know when I'm quoting for work with a fixed-price, or whether the price is an estimate that may have a lower and upper limit with some scope to increase the price if needed. It's important that your customer understands the difference. Also, when giving estimates the customer will always latch on to the lower price, so make sure the lower price means there's enough in there to make it worthwhile.

I have a quick mental lookup table;

1. I've done this before, know exactly what's involved and long it will take.
2. I've done this before, but there can be some traps and the fault may just be the tip of the iceberg.
3. It's a similar job to others I've done, but on a different brand so should be straightforward.
4. It's a similar job to others I've done, but there could be lots of unknowns
5. This is new to me and could involve background research and a whole other load of work.
6. Don't touch.

I pretty much know in advance with most 'regular' gear what will be wrong with it. That's regardless of the perceived fault the customer is experiencing with the equipment. When I price those jobs, I base my offer on what I think will be wrong and give the customer advice and an estimate. Say a guy wants a re-tube on a mid-90s Fender Deville. He thinks it just needs tubes, but I can also can pretty much guarantee that it will have a burnt board below the 16v dropper resistors, socket pins that need re-soldering, maybe a loose input socket and bad caps if they're the original Illinois type. Plus maybe some bad solder joints around the caps. If the guy just still wants a straight re-tube, fine. But he's now aware of what could be wrong and I've covered myself against the amp coming back after a few months and him saying I re-tubed it and now it has something else wrong. The same thing with plenty of other gear - you see the same set of faults time and time again and know what to expect and how much time properly fixing the item will take.

Always try to get a look at the gear before giving a firm price. Very often gear is badly battered and has suffered years of neglect. Over the phone it may sound OK, but when it turns up your heart sinks. Also, establish if anyone else has 'had a go' beforehand, as this can really complicate matters and extend the time needed. Picking up a turd is one thing, picking one up that someone else has trodden in is entirely different.

At one time I took in everything, never turning anyone down. That was a big mistake, but I did that for years. I would price up a job thinking what it would take, then find the job was far more involved and I should have said No. Sometimes though, I'll take on a job knowing it won't pay a decent hourly rate, but provides a really good opportunity to learn something new and increase my skill set.

At the other end of the scale, decide your approach if a kid's mum asks you to fix a plywood Spongebob Squarepants ukulele.

[Enzo]

That reminds me, learning to say "No" is an important skill. I took pride in the ability to fix just about anything, but some projects just beg to be declined.

[Mick Bailey]

Most people want to hand a problem over to someone else - pretty much the reason we're in this business. But you want to be able to fix something, not be left holding someone else's problem with nowhere to go, or to land yourself with a job where you're disheartened right from the start. Better to say 'No' in the first place than to agree to fix something then find out afterwards you'd have been better off declining.

It's best to know yourself what you want to accept. Fixing an amp is a channel for mics, lighting, laptops, PA, keyboards, wireless systems, mixers and anything else electronic to come your way, including instruments. Do you want to repair keyboards? I used to, but unless its an interesting vintage synth no longer take them. They take up too much bench space. Take a Roland stage piano apart and you now have it occupying three times the area it did originally. So you find out what's wrong and parts need to come from Japan and take maybe three weeks. Do you put it back together, leave it where it is, or cobble it into a box or two in the meantime?

Do you have the skills and equipment to diagnose a mixer that runs off an I-Pad and has no conventional physical controls, or troubleshoot a software error in a piece of digital gear? Or locate a problem with a wireless channel? Can you safely work on SMPS? Can you deal with SMD? What about MIDI guitars? I have quite a few customers with Godin guitars and I can tell you there's zero factory support for early instruments and no spares.

[Tone Meister]

That reminds me, learning to say "No" is an important skill. I took pride in the ability to fix just about anything, but some projects just beg to be declined.

Well worth repeating.

[DrGonz78]

Do you have the skills and equipment to diagnose a mixer that runs off an I-Pad and has no conventional physical controls, or troubleshoot a software error in a piece of digital gear?

This was something that literally happened to me about a year ago. Damn thing had symptoms of no output and I did observe that with my friend so I knew it really was an issue. Since it was a friend I agreed to look it over but anyone else I would have turned them down on the job. I found some questionable solder joints and fixed up anything that I could. I got out my android software plugged it in and to my surprise the thing was now working, I did this five times at least. He picks it up a few days later and calls back to report it is still has the same problem. He was going to bring it by again, but thankfully he simply brought over gear that was actually fixable instead, lol.


Here are some links to a few other posts that have similar questions. Perhaps make this one a sticky on the page??? We can add all the related links into this thread as it goes...
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t42483/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t38665-2/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t34374/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t37909/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t34042-2/

[Sowhat]

HoKey Smoke!!!

I'm doing this all wrong, maybe it's because I am just having fun in my twilight years. When I was younger I really pinched the pennies knowing that was the only way you could financially survive. I guess now I really do this for the aggravation, strange that I need that in my life but I guess I really do. I do have to say that money is not the object of the game for me anymore, I already know I will never get fair compensation for the magic I think I perform.

I guess I really don't have any advise, it's a wonderful world we live in, a great big beautiful place.

[Enzo]

It all depends on what you are trying to do. If you enjoy it as a hobby and want to just charge something that feels good, more power to you. But if you see it as a business or as a form of generating income, then you have to look at it through the business filter.

[SoulFetish]

Whoa! I didn't realize I got some replies til now! (What the hell happened to my notifications)
Thanks guys for getting back to me I just gave this a quick look over.

.....What is a legit business to you? Are you working from your home, or are you thinking of working from a commercial property - a storefront or a warehouse? You already own/rent your home, but moving to a commercial property - a proper shop as it were - is a large step.

...You plan to do this, period? or do you want to come home from work, spend a few hours making extra cash in the evenings?

...How will you get the work? People come drop it off? SOme store worked out a deal for customers to drop off there?

What are the comparables in your area? WHo does similar repairs, and what do they charge?

...How long would it really take to pull the chassis, squirt Deoxit in all the controls and swab out the jacks with a Qtip, make sure everything is tight and all functions work? Can you do that in an hour?

Now hold on a minute, Enzo, I'm asking the questions here!
No, this is all top shelf stuff here (and I thought the "how much will it cost?" question was tough) I'll get back to you on these.

Do you have the skills and equipment to diagnose a mixer that runs off an I-Pad and has no conventional physical controls,

How weird is it that you ask me that! I literally just did sound for a gig where I ran into problems with it in the middle of the show. I lost complete control over levels at one point from connectivity/latency problems and managed to get through the show without people noticing any problems. We (the royal "we") got a call and he wants me to look into it further so I'm gonna say "yes", I can handle this.

or troubleshoot a software error in a piece of digital gear? Or locate a problem with a wireless channel?

f
No, but I'm good with hardware and software and I'm a quick study.

Can you safely work on SMPS? Can you deal with SMD?

Yes and kind of - I don't have a reflow station and I know how much it sucks to try and use a through hole iron on SMD stuff.

What about MIDI guitars? I have quite a few customers with Godin guitars and I can tell you there's zero factory support for early instruments and no spares.

No experience with them, but like I said. I'm a real fast learner.

I actually just talked with an established tech in my area about coming on at the end of the summer. He has a really good reputation and he's been around a long time. *Fingers crossed* that it works out I get the opportunity. I take a lot of pride in having the highest standard of quality in the work I do, and doing it with integrity. I'm self taught in electronics, but I have a lot of confidence in what I've been able to learn a lot in my time doing this. Having said that, I lack relevant experience and some technical knowledge in some areas, where I think I could learn a lot working under an established technician.

[SoulFetish]

I'm going to give these responses a more thorough read through and get back to you guys.

[Sowhat]

It all depends on what you are trying to do. If you enjoy it as a hobby and want to just charge something that feels good, more power to you. But if you see it as a business or as a form of generating income, then you have to look at it through the business filter.

Ditto to everything you, Mike Bailey and the others have advised, it's all obviously true, I especially like the trouble with keyboards thing, that one get's a double ditto.

[SoulFetish]

This was something that literally happened to me about a year ago. Damn thing had symptoms of no output and I did observe that with my friend so I knew it really was an issue. Since it was a friend I agreed to look it over but anyone else I would have turned them down on the job. I found some questionable solder joints and fixed up anything that I could. I got out my android software plugged it in and to my surprise the thing was now working, I did this five times at least. He picks it up a few days later and calls back to report it is still has the same problem. He was going to bring it by again, but thankfully he simply brought over gear that was actually fixable instead, lol.


Here are some links to a few other posts that have similar questions. Perhaps make this one a sticky on the page??? We can add all the related links into this thread as it goes...
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t42483/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t38665-2/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t34374/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t37909/
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t34042-2/

I appreciate you posting these. Thank you.

[glebert]

I am also someone who is new-ish to doing repair work as a small business. One thing that I have done is to mostly avoid doing "repair for fee" type of work. I find that for a lot of amps people just aren't willing to put money in to repair them. Instead I buy broken amps (or take them on trade), fix them, and sell them on Craigslist, Offerup, Ebay, or Reverb.com. This lets me tinker and experiment all I want with an amp if I feel like it, or if it is giving me problems I can set it aside for a month. I also gives me more experience. I'm lucky that I have a large work area and a wife who does not mind the 20 or so amps that I have sitting around waiting to be sold or fixed, but it works for me.

[bob p]

Welcome aboard. You're well on your way to becoming a junk hoarder. LOL.