Blue blob caps in Silverface Fenders?

[Randall]

What is your take on them? Like everything else, I've heard it both ways. Customer wants "every last drop of tone" from a SF Pro Reverb. Amp is dead stock. It has the white Mallory electrolytics, which I will change since I'm doing the filter caps. He has no qualms about upgrading if it will give him better tone. I suggested putting in Mallory 150's, which I know sound good.

Change them or not?

[bob p]

If it were my amp, I'd keep them.

If it were a customer's amp, I'd replace them with Mallorys and I'd keep them.

On a more serious note, I don't replace them unless they've failed and/or ESR is high.

IMO you have to strike a balance between giving the customer what he wants and not doing anything hair-brained. Sooner or later the stupidity will stop... people are already paying big money to have mustard caps put back into their Marshalls. For every guy who wants those blue caps out of his vintage fender, there will someday be another guy who wants them to perform a proper restoration.

If someone asked me I'd tell them to leave them alone, and that wringing the last drop of tone out of the amp will only come from practicing.

[Leo_Gnardo]

What bob p said ^^^. Deafinitely good to replace those white Mallory cathode bypass caps. In general I'd leave the blue blobs BUT if el customer insists on upgrading, Mallory 150 film caps in EQ stacks and interstage positions are an excellent, and affordable choice. I really can't hear any "improvement" beyond them, compared to costly boo-teek choices like Sozo & others.

Swapping out the cap that delivers signal to the output drive/inverter to a 0.001 uF Mallory 150 shouldn't be neglected.

Besides practice & choice of guitar/pickups, speakers in the amp make more difference than anything else in the audio chain. What I tell folks is "listen to what others are using and when you hear something that grabs your ears the right way, get that for yourself." When Vintage 30 were made in England, half the time my customers made a change, that's what they'd pick. Now the made in China version is what's sold, not so much. It's hard to predict what someone will like but it really has to fit the player's tone style. I'm a fan of Eminence Texas Heat, but there are so many other worthy of consideration, a long list of Jensen, Eminence, Scumback, Warehouse, etc etc etc etc.

[Chuck H]

I'm in the camp that there is a tonal difference with some film caps. But not the exact same camp... I used the 715p OD caps. I liked that they were polyprops and as such had a more stable tone between when the amp is switched on and when it's done three sets at an outdoor gig in the sun The truth is that I've only had the temp/tone change problem a few times, but I hated it. So I chose polypropylene dielectric caps for their stability. They do seem to sound a little more strident and flat, but that could be my imagination. I've since switched to the brown Panasonic polyester caps (I can't remember the model # just now) because they have good specs and are affordable. Sprague has priced their OD caps out of the market just like they did with the ATOM electrolytics.

I probably didn't need to run on about it so long because my point is just that some caps are more significantly different than others. Those blue blobs are rolled up polyester and the Mallory 150's are rolled up polyester. I think the Mallory's are "metalized" and it's possible (probable?) the blue blobs aren't.?. I doubt there's any significant difference in performance between them other than placebo effect. Tell your customer the truth as you see it and then give them what they want

[Randall]

This customer lit up when I mentioned going with Mallory 150s, so the placebo effect is certain to be in play here. Also, I don't like being in the position of having to listen to an amp for the first time and having to proclaim that they are good or bad or anything else regarding tone. And then listening to replacements and trying to decipher if they are better, worse, or same from something I last heard 30 minutes ago. I usually prefer to say if YOU want to try these, or YOU want to try those, I'll make it happen, but the choice is yours. An exception would be those brown ones, which pretty much everyone doesn't like, then I'll go Mallory 150. In this case I will put them in the tone stack of the Vib channel, and interstages on the road thru the PI to the outputs. Maybe it will make a difference, who knows. I think it will in his mind at least.

[nsubulysses]

I sometimes try the old, "you know, you'd be surprised but i'm not really too much of a tone hound myself."

Works sometimes

[Enzo]

I usually told customers "These are what I stock and use. They are good quality parts. If you prefer some other type cap, they will have to be ordered."

[The Dude]

I usually tell them 1UF = 1UF.

[Enzo]

"yeah, but... yeah. but..."

[bob p]

... I've since switched to the brown Panasonic polyester caps (I can't remember the model # just now) because they have good specs and are affordable. Sprague has priced their OD caps out of the market just like they did with the ATOM electrolytics.

I have a bunch of M150 and Sprague ODs in my parts boxes, but my supply won't last forever. I'd be interested in checking out the brown Panasonic caps if you can find the series number.

[bob p]

When Vintage 30 were made in England, half the time my customers made a change, that's what they'd pick. Now the made in China version is what's sold, not so much.

I've heard that said a lot. Not having ever done a direct comparison I honestly don't know how true it is. It's popular for people to say things like "the old UK V30 are better than the new Chinese ones." If I had to guess, I'd say that definitely could have been true when they first moved production to China and needed to work the kinks out of the manufacturing process, but is it still the case? Or are our ears biased by the Made in China stigma?

In the past (postwar WWII) MIJ was equivalent to cheaply made junk, but then Japanese manufacturing improved and Japanese products became some of the highest quality products available. MIC gear started off the same way, but Chinese manufacturing quality can be quite good if manufacturers are willing to do QC.

AFICT the Chinese V30 remains a staple as far as speakers go, and they're still somewhat of a reference standard. Now that I'm down to my last NOS UK V30 I'd really like to know if the Chinese models are really that inferior. I honestly don't know if I should pair it up with a new Chinese V30 or use it along with a Governor. (I hate speaker rolling... just hate it.)

Anyone?

[Chuck H]

I have a bunch of M150 and Sprague ODs in my parts boxes, but my supply won't last forever. I'd be interested in checking out the brown Panasonic caps if you can find the series number.

Ha! I just looked on the Mouser site and the caps I ordered for my last build aren't there!?! Take from that as you like. Looks like I'll be researching a new line for my next build (or on hand order). Really surprising since the last caps I ordered had some street cred on the auiofool forums too. It looks like Panasonic is coloring all their caps orange now and even referencing the "orange drop" moniker for some of their products. Including a polypropylene cap. I will look into that one.

Honest, the last caps I ordered had been around a while and were well respected according to my research. They're just gone now.?. Maybe it just shows how often I build or maybe it demonstrates how fickle the industry is. You know damn well that Panasonic is making the same cap I bought last time, except it's orange now and has a different number on it!?! I can't promise when I'll be back inside an amp I built with those caps to take a model number either. Oh well (for both of us), back to the specs.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Or are our ears biased by the Made in China stigma?

Very possible. I haven't had the opportunity to A/B UK vs China made Vintage 30's. They may sound totally alike far as I know. But the customers by & large are not buying into China made Celestions, especially considering there is no price advantage.

Panasonic MPP caps (metallized polypropylene) work perfectly well and so far the brown ones I got from Mouser are dirt cheap. Wonder if they will inflate the price with orange paint on them. Those folks who were fans of Xicon MPP (discontinued alas) will like them I'm sure. If Mallory 150's become unobtainium as Chuck indicates, good ol' Panasonic will bail us out.

According to the lore I've run across, the cylindrical blue coated (epoxy?) caps found in mid 60's Fenders were Mallory 150. Somewhere along the line they left off the blue covers, still the same capacitor made of polyethylene aka mylar, and aluminum layers alternated like a jelly roll. For the moment, they're still available at Antique/CE. To my ears they have a clear crisp tone, and I've used them in hi fi equipment as well. But of course I may be full of beans and experiencing audio hallucinations, YMMV and all that.

[Chuck H]

I've heard that said a lot. Not having ever done a direct comparison I honestly don't know how true it is. It's popular for people to say things like "the old UK V30 are better than the new Chinese ones." If I had to guess, I'd say that definitely could have been true when they first moved production to China and needed to work the kinks out of the manufacturing process, but is it still the case? Or are our ears biased by the Made in China stigma?

In the past (postwar WWII) MIJ was equivalent to cheaply made junk, but then Japanese manufacturing improved and Japanese products became some of the highest quality products available. MIC gear started off the same way, but Chinese manufacturing quality can be quite good if manufacturers are willing to do QC.

AFICT the Chinese V30 remains a staple as far as speakers go, and they're still somewhat of a reference standard. Now that I'm down to my last NOS UK V30 I'd really like to know if the Chinese models are really that inferior. I honestly don't know if I should pair it up with a new Chinese V30 or use it along with a Governor. (I hate speaker rolling... just hate it.)

Anyone?

My first V30's were a pair of Brittish 16ohm. I was unimpressed. I've since used the China 8ohm version in two other amps and preferred it. Though on my personal amp the China V30 had a cone cry that took almost two years of occasional playing on a 20W amp to burn out (but it did). I wasn't willing to change it out because it sounded great otherwise. It DID need to be broken in though. As new there was a lot of upper mids. That can be fun sometimes, but not for the life of an amp. It took about a year to break it in and about two years for the cone cry to dissipate. Now I hope I never have to replace it!!! I've read that there was some issue with cone cry on a lot of the early China V30's. Perhaps (likely?) this has been worked out. With an extended break in I think the Chinese V30 should be great and it's probably what I'll buy. Unless I choose to pair it with a G12 anniversary. Also a great speaker. Excellent in an open back cab. A little dark on it's own in a closed back cab. My current favorite cabinet (for some nine years!) is a 2x12 with one Chinese V30 and one G12 anni. And I tried a half dozen other speakers and a dozen combinations in that cabinet before settling. YMMV I also hate speaker rolling. In fact that's why I prompted Tboy to start the "trade tent". So that members here could trade speakers for the shipping price rather than buy them all. I think that forum has about six posts NBD. I still think it was a good idea. Maybe out dated in the face of modern trends though. Perhaps you and I are the only ones that roll speakers just for a build

[bob p]

I looked at caps on the Panasonic site last night and I noticed that they were more orange-looking than brown. I wasn't sure if that was a photo artifact or if they changed the color. Based on what you guys have said it sounds like they changed the color to Mojo Orange.

Panasonic makes good caps. I've used Panasonics electrolytics quite a bit. They're one of the few manufacturers of 'lytics that offer the chicken-foot mounting tabs on big caps. I like those inexpensive red Xicon signal caps for prototyping. I wasn't even aware they were no longer available.