20uf@ 500V Prices are Insane !

[Amp Kat]

Are you guys noticing the rise in price for the Sprague Atom 20uf 500 volters are just going thru the roof ! $8 to $12 a pop is insane for a cap that they make relatively cheap. Mouser had them at around $5 and now they are $8 which seems to be the going rate almost everywhere. Granted they are used in almost every Fender out there is the most likely reason but jeez they don't have to go for the juggular vain. Anyone with a decent source at a large quantity could put all of these guys realing. Just had to rant a bit and wondering if anyone else noticed it.

[RenegadeAmps]

You should look into getting OEM/Dealer accounts set up with places like MojoTone, CE Distribution, Magic Parts, etc. if you are building more than a couple of amps a year. the cap in question is still under or right around $5 from most of these sources. There are other good caps out there on the market as well. Illinois Capacitor, Xicon, Nichion, Cornell-Dublier, Panasonic, F&T to name a few. All of those make a very good cap We're taking about power filtering not signal. If you are decoupling the power supply properly between stages you should not have signal creeping around in your PS.

Shop around 20uF-500v Atoms are way cheaper than $12 a pop

[soundmasterg]

I agree that Atoms are cheaper than $12 a pop out there but even the wholesale prices have gone up quite a bit recently. A poster on another forum said there was about a 63% price increase in electrolytic caps across the board recently, and his supplier said it was because the price of aluminium has gone up so high. Maybe this means our Coke and Pepsi is going to cost more too hmmm?

[Tom Phillips]

Re: “Granted they are used in almost every Fender out there is the most likely reason but jeez they don't have to go for the jugular…”

I don’t think the suppliers are raising the prices because the 20uF / 500V Sprague part is popular. In fact, by current standards it is not a high volume part for the electronics industry. The whole TVA line has been listed as “not recommended for new designs” for many years. That means that the manufacturer has been trying to phase them out. I’m surprised that they are still manufactured at all. I’d say that the price increases are due to several factors such as: 1) Price on everything keeps going up 2) Increase in cost of raw materials 3) Relatively low volume. This affects everyone in the supply chain. 4) Manufacturer really does not want to keep making the TVA product line.

A few other ramblings from me:
* I still like them. I especially like the nice strong and long lead wires. They are done in the style of old parts intended for point-to-point wiring. They are nostalgic for me but the blue shrink wrap doesn’t have the high nostalgic value of the old Sprague yellow cardboard covered parts.
* If you were to open one up you would find that there is a lot of empty space inside the case. The actual capacitor is of modern construction. It is NOT made like the old Sprague caps.
* The quality control has gone way down on these parts. Every batch I get has some that rattle because the small guts in the big case are not held in place properly.
* Other available caps will perform as well or better. They are just a different size and I hate the weenie leads.
* Fender didn’t use them much (if at all) in the old amps. The tubular electrolytics in the old Fenders were usually Mallory or Astro.
* Although the currently available parts may say “Sprague” on them, I believe they are made by SBE or United Chemi-Con.
* There have been similar price jumps in the past on the TVA line.

I think that’s enough rambling for now.
Fell free to comment or flame away!

Best,
Tom

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I agree with almost everything Tom said.
We buy 200 to 300, 475v and 500v Sprague filter caps at a time and the price is twice what they use to be a very short time ago, but I am also finding more and more defective ones in every batch now.
The F&T 22uF/500v E-caps are pretty darn good and at least the price is not absurd like the Spragues are now.
Tiny leads or not, this has gotten so out of control that for all the new amps we build, we DO NOT use the Sprague filter caps anymore as they're not even as good as as many of the othe import caps at half the cost.
************

OK I just checked with my supplier and the cost of the Sprague filter caps has gone up an additional +$2.00 each in the last 30 days... I might be done with them too....
*********************

OK I just checked with Doug's site (Hoffman) and he has a blurb about the rip off Sprague prices too... looks like it is time for a boycott.

[Tom Phillips]

Sure sound like they don't want to make the line any longer. Maybe some bean counter got involved at the factory.
I'll miss the variety of values available from Mouser. They carry the full line as opposed to just the popular guitar amp values that MI supply houses can afford to stock.
Tom

[R.G.]

There is a condition which I refer to as "MBA Disease".

Most simply put, it's the idea that you can make more money on your investment by removing things from your product line which make you less than your acceptable rate of return, channelling the funds instead into activities which make more than the acceptable rate of return. Another term for it is "cream skimming".

The musical instrument market is such a tiny fraction of the electronics industry as a whole that it cannot cause the industry to make things for it at a good price because the volume is too small. High voltage axial lead electros are not where the market is going, so the investment funds are going elsewhere too. This is only a problem to you as a consumer if you are somehow stuck on the old stuff. Then you have to pay more because your volumes are no longer high. While this is a common understanding of the law of economy of scale, MBA Disease amplifies this with a vengeance.

You're right - if the volume is not there they DON'T want to make them any more, at least not at the old, high volume prices. The premium for making low volumes has always been a reality. It's just biting tube amp makers and fixers now.

Of course, the price of aluminum has skyrocketed lately too. That doesn't help, and forces the MBAs to make newer, more aggressive decisions about what to keep and what to shuck.

Now, for a quick quiz. Can you guess what the result of a boycott will be? The volume on an already PITA product line drops further?

The right answer is to get over it. Go make your caps out of the same things that go into off-line switching power supplies. When you do that, you're now sitting right in the middle of where every maker of electrolytics wants to be. That product will be the most cost effective high voltage cap you can get. Economics says so, and that carries more force than any man-made law.

[R.G.]

Sorry, I hit send too quickly.

Compare the price of two 47uF/200V (or the next closest standard value) caps to the cost of one 20uF/500V.

The MBA's are trying to communicate with you. They will supply whatever you want as long as you're willing to pay for it. They just won't give you exactly the form factor and rating you want if you insist on it being as cheap as the cheapest thing they sell.

[Smitty]

R.G.

As usual, that was very well put. And as an MBA I wasn't offended at all.

I've had a lot of success with Nichicon VX(M). I get them from Jacques Ebert Associates. He also carries the Tech Caps.

Smitty

[LooseChange]

How about an alternative. I use these all the time. They are really small and I have NEVER had a defect... 20uf @ 450v = $ 1.20!!!

Click here and slide down to the bottom

[famp69wv@yahoo.com]

Any of the 'cons' will do!

Guys

FWIW my experience is that any of the 'cons' (nichicon, xicon etc. etc.) will generally do although they don't have the macho size leads the atoms do. Their overall more diminutive size can actually be a benefit in the ever more crowded chassis and about two years ago I did some limited ESR checking which revealed that there wasn't that significant a difference when compared to the Atoms.

As I understand it F&Ts fare pretty much the same as the Atoms in the ESR department and price out somewhere between the 'cons' & the Atoms. Although I still have a few Atoms laying around I guess I joined the 'boycott' over two years ago.

I wasn't ahead of the curve; rather I was behind in the wallet stuffing and short on chassis space.

[Tom Phillips]

500v?

One thing I have been wondering about is the 500V rating of the 20uF / 500 Atom cap. Wondering such thigs as is it really a 500V part. Most other brands seem to top out at 450V. Maybe just specsmanship? Other Sprague electrolytic product lines also seem to top out at lower voltage ratings. I see specs like 400V / 450V Surge for the Vishay Sprague types 53D and 500D. Also the highest voltage Atom parts have a 20 degree C lower high temp rating. Hmm?

[Carl / Zwengel Amps]

Yes they really are 500v caps with a 550v surge. As for the temp rating it all comes down to thermodynamics. The TVA caps are HUGE! Problem here is that parts with this much mass tend to hang on to heat much longer than physically smaller caps. As a result of this the larger the cap the lower the temp and/or ripple current rating. To a great degree they go hand in hand.

With regard to cap substitutes, I've been sniffing around some different capacitor replacements for these lately and the UCC 22mm snap-in caps have been performing quite well at roughly half the cost/uF!

And as an aside, for you hand wiring cats out there...layout your boards using 3/8" spacing and large eyelets for the terminals and they will literally "snap in" perfectly!

-Carl

[Thorny]

IC 22uf 500v caps

try the IC 22uf 500v caps - much cheaper and work fine. Have not bought any in a while but I bet some others have. Last ones I got were from Antique Electronics or CEdist if you are a dealer.

[Amp Kat]

I've wondered about the 22uf 500 volters but man they are so small they just don't look right under the hood. They do use them in almost all of the reissue amps and I'm noticing even some more prolific amps using them. I saw a Naylor that had them in them. What about the Fender replacement ? or the Ruby's from Majic ? I do have someone checking for me that gets a really good deal from places like FAI and I have some Dealer accounts spread out but they are still much higher than they were a few ago. Thanks for all the great info and if anyone gets a good deal let us know !