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Symetrix se400 dual parametric equalizer schematic

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  • Symetrix se400 dual parametric equalizer schematic

    I bought this Symetric SE400 Dual Parametric EQ back in 2003 (on ebay for $102) when the core of my band reformed for a few years to take another crack at putting some tunes together and doing an album, this time produced by ourselves. I had been working at BGW Systems when they went bankrupt, worked for a spell at Marshall Electronics in their Microphone Division in El Segundo, later worked at Westlake Recording Studios running their repair shop, and later still landing the gig at CenterStaging, LLC in Burbank where I still hang my hat.

    The living room at my apartment in
    Gardena, CA got turned into a music room, and I bought a Yamaha 02R Digital console, it having four ADAT Digital I/O cards, which eventually got routed thru Motu 324 interface into my DAW for recording. I made use of this equalizer in my bass channel for a while.


    I had done some clean-up work on the EQ when I was using it with a GK 1001RB bass amp at my church, and now using it with my restored Ampeg SVT4-Pro. This past week, I pulled the unit apart, having bought replacement caps for all the cards inside. While taking photos of the boards for my records, I found a few date codes. Latest one was on the side of the Gain pot of the I/O board, being 9230 (1992, 30th week). Date code on the NE5534A was 8130 (1981, 30th week), and on the frame of the power xfmr 8838 (1988 38th week). I’m guessing this was built in maybe 1993. The date on the schematic of the Symetrix 528 Mic Preamp Channel Strip was July 7, 1993.

    I’ve never found any schematics for this SE400, and from what I’ve read on the internet, nor has anyone else. Symetrix offered no help, it being long out of production. When I had the unit apart this past January, armed with the schematic of the 528, I found the parametric EQ circuit very similar to it, though with one less op amp stage in the EQ bands. This past week I finished creating the schematic for the I/O module, then loaded my copy of Protel DXP onto the laptop at work, having it on my DAW at home. So, for the past couple days, I’ve drawn up the schematic for the SE400 Dual Parametric Equalizer, just for fun, and have attached those two pages here.

    Symetrix SE-400 Parametric EQ Ch 1.pdf

    Symetrix SE-400 Parametric EQ Ch 2.pdf

    This past weekend, I took photos of the modules prior to re-capping the modules, and made use of the I/O foil pattern to aid in creating that schematic. As the electrolytic caps in this unit appear to be nearly 30 yrs old, and had polarized caps in the signal path, I replaced those with Nichicon MUSE Nonpolar parts. I forgot to order 1000uF/35V axial buss caps for the power supply board, and now after seeing DC voltages on the buss caps, I’d say replacing those will make more sense. The power xfmr secondary is 37.4VAC CT, and rectifying those 18.7VAC lines and charging them up, finding +23.1VDC and -22.5VDC on the buss caps, those seem low. I don’t recall hearing hum in the unit, but fresh caps should yield higher equal levels.

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    I did replace the green ‘chicklet’ mylar caps while I was at it, using metalized polypropylene parts from Wima and Kemet. I’ll later have a look at those parts on the network analyzer.

    When I did maintenance on this unit, along with my Symetrix 501 Compressor/Limiter as well as the CL-100 Compressor, I had lifted the audio circuit off of the chassis, floating them, with bypass ceramic caps (0.1uF/500V) to chassis, so the chassis’ were at AC Ground for the RF shield, and got rid of the HF buzz I was getting with the GK 1001RB patched into their loop. Some of that buzz was also from the nearby cheap light dimmer switch on the wall adjacent to the bass rig on stage.

    Patched into the Ampeg SVT4-Pro, it’s dead quiet.
    Attached Files
    Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

  • #2
    Nice work!

    Comment


    • #3
      In double-checking the schematics for errors, I did find a minor one. Ch 1, Low-Mid Frequency Band. R136 was used twice. As the numbers on these 'step-and-repeat' circuits were in the same sequence, the thought of having to change R136 thru R172 two times (doing the Ch 2 circuits as well) led me to cop out, changing the second use of R136/R236 instead to R173/R273. Of course, if this was in manufacturing, I would have changed all those numbers for the sake of getting the sequence right. No doubt, auto-sequencing of numbers in the program would have prevented it in the first place.

      So, here's the updated schematics:

      Symetrix SE-400 Parametric EQ Ch 1-A.pdf

      Symetrix SE-400 Parametric EQ Ch 2-A.pdf
      Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

      Comment


      • #4
        A couple days ago the replacement 1000uF/35V Axial Buss Caps arrived from Mouser, so I pulled the power supply PCB off the rear wall, removed the original buss caps, which turned out to be 470uF/35V units. After putting in the new parts, and adding the two protection diodes D5 and D6 around the outputs of the IC regulators to the input buss caps that I added to the schematic, my brain didn't register that I had them shown backwards. Those weren't on the power supply board until I replaced the buss caps. When I had powered up the unit, now with those diodes incorrectly in place, sure enough, unregulated buss voltage was being dumped onto the output of the regulators and onto the buss lines of the system op amps. OPPS!!

        This morning, having spotted that schematic mistake, I opened the unit up, and both verified the regulated supplies were no longer regulated. Did I kill all of the op amps? Didn't yet know. After correcting the installation of D5 & D6 protection diodes, I found the +15V supply regulator wasn't working, and replaced it. I had still been seeing dissimilar buss voltages with the new caps, and even replaced the four bridge rectifier circuit diodes, having had two measuring much higher on the DMM semi test mode. That didn't change anything....but now with the replacement 7815T regulator in place, both buss voltages are finally correct.

        After correcting a solder bridge that I managed to add during the swapping of the protection diodes, everything worked...until I cranked up the input level with the HPF engaged. I lost signal thru that stage, while everything else worked...just one of the two channels. Turned out to be a solder joint issue on one of the resistors I had moved to the foil side of the PCB to make room for those larger 100nF caps in the HPF. So, it survived the short-term excess supply voltages that got applied.

        I've updated the schematics and added them here, now at Rev B for the two channels.


        Symetrix SE-400 Parametric EQ Ch 1-B.pdf

        Symetrix SE-400 Parametric EQ Ch 2-B.pdf
        Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nevetslab View Post

          I've updated the schematics and added them here, now at Rev B for the two channels.[/FONT]

          [ATTACH]n929153[/ATTACH]

          [ATTACH]n929154[/ATTACH]
          This is such a great work! I just joined this forum because of your post, due I just bought an used unit of SE400 and waiting for arrival, In your personal opinion, what is your experience with this unit and its sound?

          The diagrams will be very useful in case I have to take the unit for maintenance with some technician...

          I have a doubt, or maybe my eyes did not see it, but you have not marked the inputs and outputs in the schematic? are they balanced or unbalanced connectors?

          and I have another question, some things in the schematic are according to the modifications you have made? or is it a schematic based on the original components?

          Is there any chance also to post some pics of how the complete unit looks inside?

          Thank you for the great work!!
          Last edited by Nordlead26; 05-05-2021, 08:18 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by nevetslab View Post

            I've updated the schematics and added them here, now at Rev B for the two channels.[/FONT]

            [ATTACH]n929153[/ATTACH]

            [ATTACH]n929154[/ATTACH]
            Good news I found the original SE400 manual and schematic, it's an EQ so old that schematics it was still hand drawn! it looks a little blurry but I think it can be useful!

            I think you can use it to refine your schematic with modern graphs, and correct what you think is necessary!

            I would be one of the most grateful if you could keep updating this post and your schematic versions:

            https://3r61fy4ckkky4bvae644ns07-wpe...-Schematic.pdf

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Nordlead26 View Post

              This is such a great work! I just joined this forum because of your post, due I just bought an used unit of SE400 and waiting for arrival, In your personal opinion, what is your experience with this unit and its sound?

              The diagrams will be very useful in case I have to take the unit for maintenance with some technician...

              I have a doubt, or maybe my eyes did not see it, but you have not marked the inputs and outputs in the schematic? are they balanced or unbalanced connectors?

              and I have another question, some things in the schematic are according to the modifications you have made? or is it a schematic based on the original components?

              Is there any chance also to post some pics of how the complete unit looks inside?

              Thank you for the great work!!
              Welcome to the forum!

              Actually I did clearly label the input and output phone jacks on the schematics. My chassis is also punched for XLR Male and Female connectors, but have blank plates masking the holes. As all of the active circuitry is on the I/O PCB it is Unbalanced In and Out. So any units having balanced in and out would have been done with transformers. The long interface PCB that both channel's EQ boards and I/O boards plug into dont' have additional connectors, if Symetrix used an active input/output board, then it would have been mounted elsewhere on the chassis.

              The only mod's I've made is adding the diodes across the input/output of the IC regulator IC's, changing the value of the power supply filter cap (from 470uF to 1000uF), and lifting the Input and Output phone jacks (metal bushing Switchcraft N-series plastic jacks) and adding a 0.1uF/500V cap between circuit ground and chassis ground, providing RF ground to the unit. I have the EQ rack mounted with two other Symetrix Compressor/Limiters, and originally had some buzz interfacing with a GK 1001 bass amp's effects loop.

              I did post photos of all the cards used (four EQ cards, I/O card), plus some basic shots showing the power supply PCB, the xfmr, the I/O jacks, all the cards plugged into the long I/O PCB to route DC power and signal to the two channels. I do have more photos in my file, and will review this when I get into my shop this morning.

              Thanks for you comments and interest. I really love how this unit works.....inexpensive unit, not as exotic as some other Parametric EQ's I've seen/used over the years, but easy to service. I do like how this sounds. Granted, I'm using mine in the effects loop of my Ampeg SVT4-Pro Bass Amp, following the Symetrix 501 compressor/limiter unit. I have used it for Stage monitors in the past. I did update the film caps and electrolytic caps, changing from polar to nonpolar types in the signal path. The schematics are labeled accordingly.

              I'll download what you posted....that would be the first document I've ever seen on it from Symetrix.

              While you have your SE-400 open, look closely at the connections of the header pins for each of the plug-in cards. Over time, those pins end up with solder fractures to give you intermittency. I had that problem when I first bought this EQ years ago. Solder fractures seem to be a fact of life on assemblies like this, so look closely....desolder, then re-solder. They used leaded solder, not lead-free crap.
              Last edited by nevetslab; 05-06-2021, 12:51 AM.
              Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Nordlead26 View Post
                This is such a great work! I just joined this forum because of your post, due I just bought an used unit of SE400 and waiting for arrival, In your personal opinion, what is your experience with this unit and its sound?

                Is there any chance also to post some pics of how the complete unit looks inside?
                As the PCB's didn't have silk screen labels on them, and no schematic available, I generated my own numbering system...100 series for Channel 1, 200 series for Channel 2, power supply started with 1-series ascending numbers, and did similar with the interconnect numbers to the rear I/O PCB for all ten circuit boards.

                I've added some additional photos here. I replaced the original power cord with a Stacking male/female 3-pin Nema 515M/P plug.

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                On each of the PCB assemblies, I removed the pots from the PCB, and on the single-gang pots, removed the metal cover to gain full access to the resistance wafer and wiper rotor assembly, and applied Caig Deoxit from their small brush / bottle, coating the resistance track and exercised the control to coat the wiper/rotor assembly. Then, put the cover back on, folded the flaps back down to lock the cover back in place. The dual gang Frequency pot, all you can do is set the wiper at mid-point, and insert the Deoxit with the brush on both sides onto the resistance track, then rotate the shaft back and forth to exercise and coat the resistance track and wiper/rotor. Soldered the controls back into place. With the push button switches on the I/O PCB, I seeped Caig Deoxit down the switch shaft and exercised it to distribute the solution onto the contacts. That yielded quiet switches and controls.

                On the schematic, I had labeled the RED LED circuit as Clip Indicator. It's nothing more than a peak level detector, and can't detect loss of feedback when the circuit actually begins clipping. I could have replaced the tin-plated IC sockets while I was changing out parts on the PCB's. I decided to leave them in place. LF353N dual BiFet Op Amps everywhere except for the output amp, which is an NE5534, compensated for unity gain.

                Good luck on your SE-400 Parametric EQ unit.

                Attached Files
                Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nevetslab View Post

                  Welcome to the forum!
                  Thank you so much for the welcome and for the huge information and pictures! I really appreciate it!

                  I have one more question, is there a way to know in this unit in regard to the Inputs and outputs, which is left and right?

                  In my personal logic I guess 1 is left and 2 is right? is this assumption correct? or is viceversa?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nordlead26 View Post
                    I have one more question, is there a way to know in this unit in regard to the Inputs and outputs, which is left and right?

                    In my personal logic I guess 1 is left and 2 is right? is this assumption correct? or is viceversa?

                    You got it. Left = 1, Right = 2
                    Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nevetslab View Post
                      I was thinking of replacing the potentiometers with detent potentiometers, could you help me to verify how many Ohms they are, or what specs they should have to be 100% compatible with this unit? I will take these parts to a specialized technician, however I would like to know such details to buy the pieces

                      are this ones compatible?

                      https://www.mouser.mx/ProductDetail/...pB8X1YQw%3D%3D

                      Thank you!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nordlead26 View Post

                        I was thinking of replacing the potentiometers with detent potentiometers, could you help me to verify how many Ohms they are, or what specs they should have to be 100% compatible with this unit? I will take these parts to a specialized technician, however I would like to know such details to buy the pieces

                        are this ones compatible?

                        https://www.mouser.mx/ProductDetail/...pB8X1YQw%3D%3D

                        Thank you!
                        There are three types of pots used on the EQ boards....50k Log Taper, dual 50k Reverse Log Taper, and 50k Linear taper. Then, on the I/O module, that pot is a 50 Log taper. What I don't know right off is the orientation of the flatted shaft. Visually, the Alps pots look like they're form-fit. What will be difficult will be to purchase the dual 50k Reverse Log Taper pot. Those are not normally inventoried by Alps distributors. 50k is a common value as are Linear and Log tapers for that value. I'll have to pull the cover and remove one of the EQ boards to compare the mechanical details to be sure. I won't be back in my shop until Tuesday, and at present, I'm knee deep in a restoration project on vintage gear that needs to be shipped June 4. I'll let you know as soon as I can on this. It's possible the dual gang Frequency pot could have slightly different deck spacing between the two pot elements. At least with the data sheet you've provided, I can tell. I gather you don't have calipers. You do have the same modules I have, if you do have calipers.

                        If it turned out that the flatted shaft position is NOT the same as the pots on the EQ, the color indicator caps can be removed and rotated to match the panel markings. The knobs themselves do NOT have an indicator line, so in case that is a difference, the knob cap will compensate.
                        Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nevetslab View Post

                          There are three types of pots used on the EQ boards....50k Log Taper, dual 50k Reverse Log Taper, and 50k Linear taper. Then, on the I/O module, that pot is a 50 Log taper. What I don't know right off is the orientation of the flatted shaft. Visually, the Alps pots look like they're form-fit. What will be difficult will be to purchase the dual 50k Reverse Log Taper pot. Those are not normally inventoried by Alps distributors. 50k is a common value as are Linear and Log tapers for that value. I'll have to pull the cover and remove one of the EQ boards to compare the mechanical details to be sure. I won't be back in my shop until Tuesday, and at present, I'm knee deep in a restoration project on vintage gear that needs to be shipped June 4. I'll let you know as soon as I can on this. It's possible the dual gang Frequency pot could have slightly different deck spacing between the two pot elements. At least with the data sheet you've provided, I can tell. I gather you don't have calipers. You do have the same modules I have, if you do have calipers.

                          If it turned out that the flatted shaft position is NOT the same as the pots on the EQ, the color indicator caps can be removed and rotated to match the panel markings. The knobs themselves do NOT have an indicator line, so in case that is a difference, the knob cap will compensate.
                          Thank you very much, I will be very happy if you can share with me the information no problem by the time I understand. It's great that this space exists as it's a 35 year old unit and Symetrix couldn't provide me with much info other than manual and schematics.

                          By the way, I was doing a little research on Opamps, and I see that there are of various build quality, I thought they were all standard,

                          Do you think it would make a difference to change the stock ones for Burson Audio V6 Vivid Dual? I've read that these are pretty good, but I don't know if it really makes a difference to change them? And knowing that you handle a lot of equipment, maybe you know something about it, I am also curious to know, which are the ones with equalizers like API, or other renowned equalizers. Do u have some recommendation regarding Opamps?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'll confess not to know anything about Burnson Audio V6 Vivid Dual. API used their own encapsulated discrete Op Amp...the 2520, Here's a link to some information about it JJE 2520J Op-amp, Nine Transistor All Discrete Op-amp - JJ Electronics (jjstudioelectronics.com)

                            For my application on this Symetrix SE400, the LF353's that they used are acceptable. TI has an upgrade for their TL072.....I'd have to look in my database to see what that latest JFET op amp p/n is. This EQ has been hotrodded by other audio folk over the years, and you should be able to find details in some of the other forums.
                            Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nevetslab View Post

                              For my application on this Symetrix SE400, the LF353's that they used are acceptable. TI has an upgrade for their TL072.....I'd have to look in my database to see what that latest JFET op amp p/n is. This EQ has been hotrodded by other audio folk over the years, and you should be able to find details in some of the other forums.
                              So would the TL072 be an improvement over the LF353?

                              Or which ones do you recommend that can outperform these models in terms of quality and really make a beneficial difference?

                              I have tried to research, but it is very difficult to find information about Symetrix or users sharing his modifications and upgrades.... acutally I feel lucky to find you!

                              Comment

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