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Another TSL100 bias drift problem

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  • Another TSL100 bias drift problem

    Hi,

    As you know these amps are notorious for this problem. A friend brought one where after 15 min of operation without signal one pair of tubes would start overheating due to bias shift. From what I read this PCB version is one of the worst.
    I followed some of the guides in the net. What I did so far.
    1/ replaced all bias resistors with metal film 1W
    2/ replaced all PI resistors (except for the 1M ones) with metal film 1W and CF 1W (plates).
    3/ replaced PI coupling caps and fizz cap (WIMA)
    4/ milled around pins 5 of power tube sockets (the 5k6 ones look like they are touching power tubes' pins but they don't)
    5/ tried another set of tubes without change
    Now the bias drift is much slower but it's still there and on the same side (left pair of tube). Over the course of 10-15 mins the bias would shift 1Volt up and idle current would go from 75mA to 90mA.
    Most puzzling however is PI plates' voltage drift. When switching the HV on pin6 is 255V, pin1 278V. Over the time (10-15min) pin6 voltage is dropping to 199V and pi1 voltage goes up to 330V.
    As a side detail pressing the Mute button affects the bias voltage only with couple of mAs although I changed the caps going to the Line out circuit as suggested in another thread.

    Any ideas and comments would be appreciated.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	TSL100 PCBmods.jpg Views:	0 Size:	335.3 KB ID:	939470

  • #2
    Replace main board: https://www.tubesandmore.com/product...-tsl122-rev-20
    --
    I build and repair guitar amps
    http://amps.monkeymatic.com

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    • #3
      Thanks for the suggestion but I wouldn't have posted here if I wanted to do that or scrap the whole amp.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GainFreak View Post
        4/ milled around pins 5 of power tube sockets (the 5k6 ones look like they are touching power tubes' pins but they don't)
        If you isolated all pins 5 of output tube sockets, and there's still a hat full of problems then xtian's suggestion "swap out the whole board" is the only thing left to do.

        What a PIA these amps are...

        In closing I'd have to say, $210 for a board loaded with everything but the tubes is practically a gift. Amp's owner might not agree but that's the way some folks are.
        This isn't the future I signed up for.

        Comment


        • #5
          DC leakage on some of these boards is not confined exclusively to pin 5 of the output tubes. I've had them where the PI and preamp tubes are affected as well. I still have a milling tool I made up to isolate pin 5, but the 'fixes' were temporary on quite a few of the boards. Some still had bias creep, others had excessive rustling noises and high DC voltages on the grids of the preamp tubes. The only long-term fix is to replace the board.

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          • #6
            Have you removed the bias PCB itself? I've found solder joint fractures on the header pin that interfaces with the main board, as well as fractures on the pots before. I've seeped contact cleaner into the trim pots and exercised them before putting the board back into the system. To get this board out, you have to removed the main PCB, which of course is a PITA.
            Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence

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            • #7
              Have you removed the bias PCB itself? I've found solder joint fractures on the header pin that interfaces with the main board, as well as fractures on the pots before. I've seeped contact cleaner into the trim pots and exercised them before putting the board back into the system. To get this board out, you have to removed the main PCB, which of course is a PITA.
              Yes, I inspected that board and resoldered both trimpots. Everything seems fine there.

              It looks like the the only thing left to do is this quite radical mod suggested in another forum which isolates the bias circuit from HV traces.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	BiasLift1.JPG Views:	0 Size:	71.4 KB ID:	939486 Click image for larger version  Name:	BiasLift2.JPG Views:	0 Size:	71.7 KB ID:	939487 Click image for larger version  Name:	BiasLift3.JPG Views:	0 Size:	76.1 KB ID:	939488

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              • #8
                Originally posted by GainFreak View Post
                It looks like the the only thing left to do is this quite radical mod suggested in another forum which isolates the bias circuit from HV traces.
                And if it hasn't already been done, the output side of PI coupling caps, and power tube grid resistors, should be completely lifted from the board.
                After all that, if the PI plate voltages are still acting up, you will have that to contend with.
                Originally posted by Enzo
                I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


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                • #9
                  I've replaced at least a half dozen of these boards.

                  Before they acknowledged the problem and made boards available, I and others tried fixing them by isolating pins, re-routing traces, etc.

                  It doesn't matter.
                  Eventually the whole board becomes conductive, all the way up to the preamp.
                  The material breaks down.

                  It might work for a while, but it will fail eventually.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by drewl View Post
                    I've replaced at least a half dozen of these boards.

                    Before they acknowledged the problem and made boards available, I and others tried fixing them by isolating pins, re-routing traces, etc.

                    It doesn't matter.
                    Eventually the whole board becomes conductive, all the way up to the preamp.
                    The material breaks down.

                    It might work for a while, but it will fail eventually.
                    I haven't had to work on one of these for a while, but I've also done maybe 8 or 10 of them in the last 15 years. Thanks for your observations and advice. I'll refrain from torturing myself fiddling with the errant boards from now on. You're absolutely correct, if they're gonna screw up eventually, replace the whole thing. Let's hope Marshall continues to make them available, and Antique/CE keeps carrying them.
                    This isn't the future I signed up for.

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                    • #11
                      I have a link to the site at work where a bunch of us tech's figured out the problem years ago, but I just googled it and it came up.

                      It shows all early attempt's to remedy the situation before realizing it's futile.
                      That led to Marshall issuing a replacement board made of different material.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by drewl View Post
                        I have a link to the site at work where a bunch of us tech's figured out the problem years ago, but I just googled it and it came up.

                        It shows all early attempt's to remedy the situation before realizing it's futile.
                        That led to Marshall issuing a replacement board made of different material.
                        Good work and thank you again drewl for the hint hint hint. I'm getting too old for "futile." I have plenty of it without ill behaved TSL100's.

                        When it comes to these particular amps I'm "no more mister nice guy" from here on in. Shell out, TSL100 owners, or sling your prize into the bin.
                        This isn't the future I signed up for.

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                        • #13
                          You cannot polish a turd!

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                          • #14
                            As a Marshall trade customer my buy-in price for a new board was less than the labour cost of fixing an existing board and having it bounce back at me with yet another stray voltage issue. I have to guarantee my work and know that a problem is fixed for good. I can't say "I've isolated this and lifted that", charge for parts and my time, then a year later tell the customer they now need a new PCB. It's just my opinion, but trying to fix these boards (as a repairman) is not in anyone's interest. Not one of the amps that's had a replacement board has ever come back, other than for re-tubing.

                            The main problem is an economic one for anyone buying boards at retail markup.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
                              You cannot polish a turd!
                              You can try but you will get $hit all over you.
                              nosaj
                              soldering stuff that's broken, breaking stuff that works, Yeah!

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