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New 6F4P build, good for first 2 hours, now sounds like long string of fircrackers

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  • New 6F4P build, good for first 2 hours, now sounds like long string of fircrackers

    I recently finished a build from the SoLow Watt design that has been built by several on the Hoffman and AmpGarage forums. It is a push pull amp. I used 6F4P tubes instead of ECL84. 6F4P is supposed to be the Russian equivalent of the ECL84/6DX8. Schematic attached. All new parts, except the tone caps and PI coupling caps. I got the 6F4P from a member on the Wattkins forum, don’t know anything about them. Output transformer is a Hammond 125E, wired for 17K to 8 ohms.
    It worked first time, and sounded great for a couple hours. Now it sounds like a long string of fire crackers going off, kind of like 4th of July in my neighborhood. In retrospect there were a few isolated pops at first. After maybe 2 hours of playing and maybe 10 off/on cycles, the popping got worse and worse. It would start 30-50 seconds after initial turn on. While the popping is going on, voltages are unstable, and one or both of the 6F4P are strongly microphonic. Tapping anywhere in the chassis or amp it is microphonic.
    With a guitar plugged in, it makes sound, but sounds awful when the popping is going on.
    For now I will skip over my initial attempts to trouble shoot. I now think it is an issue with the tubes. As of last night I found one of my 6F4P is shorted between grid and cathode. With my remaining 3 6F4P, the popping starts after 30-50 sec of warm up. In the dark, the 6F4P blue glow gets brighter as the pops happen. The onset of popping seems to occur as the tubes get warmed up
    The popping behavior occurs even with the 12AV7 preamp tubes pulled.
    I am going to order up some NOS ECL84/6DX8 tubes.
    To reiterate, the amp seemed to work well for a couple hours. But I wonder if the 6F4P just have a high failure rate, or if something about the build is stressing them.
    SoLow Watt 12A_7 Pullshocks 8 23 2021.pdf

    Thanks in advance

    Pullshocks / Mark
    Pacific Northwest
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Is the noise pre or post the volume control?
    What is the DC voltage (NO SIGNAL CONDITIONS) of pin 7 on the ECL84s?
    Unplugging the effects loop ... is it quiet? If it is, it is down to the pre amp section.
    Support for Fender, Laney, Marshall, Mesa, VOX and many more. https://jonsnell.co.uk
    If you can't fix it, I probably can.

    Comment


    • #3
      Failure of tubes is largely dependent on how well the tube is checked and tested before you get it. I've had quite a few brand-new, boxed tubes that have had faults that show up after a few hours (especially NOS), but these have been bought untested and I've taken a chance on them.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jon Snell View Post
        Is the noise pre or post the volume control?
        What is the DC voltage (NO SIGNAL CONDITIONS) of pin 7 on the ECL84s?
        Unplugging the effects loop ... is it quiet? If it is, it is down to the pre amp section.
        Jon, thank you. I did not interrupt the effect loop, but I did pull the preamp tubes, which I thought would accomplish the same thing. Also, the microphonic sensitivity of the 6F4P tubes makes me think that is where the problem lies.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mick Bailey View Post
          Failure of tubes is largely dependent on how well the tube is checked and tested before you get it. I've had quite a few brand-new, boxed tubes that have had faults that show up after a few hours (especially NOS), but these have been bought untested and I've taken a chance on them.
          Thanks, Mick. I have no way to know if, or how well the tubes may have been tested before I got them. I understand tube testers have their limitations, that tubes that test ok can fail in use, but I am getting one soon. Will be interesting to see how these tubes do on the tester.

          Comment


          • #6
            Be mindful that a tube tester may not use actual amp conditions to test the tube, and some only test the tube for emission. Tubes that are too microphonic to be any use will still test good. The best way to test a tube is in an amp circuit - either a dedicated test box with an audio output and facilities to meter tube current and voltages, or an actual amp. The downside of using an amp to get through boxes of tubes is socket wear and tear.

            Comment


            • #7
              A tube tester can tell you a tube is BAD, but it cannot tell you a tube is GOOD.


              A new 12AX7 swapped into a socket in seconds will tell you whether a tube was the issue or not way faster than using a tester.
              Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks to all who have responded.

                Mick and Enzo, point well taken.

                The checker showed 2 of the 4 with shorts. Short indicator was immediate with one tube (DMM shows this is between the pentode grid and catahode). The other developed as the tube warmed up.

                The other 2 tested "bad".

                I have ordered some NOS 6DX8/ECL84. They should be here in a week. Stay tuned.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Enzo View Post
                  A tube tester can tell you a tube is BAD, but it cannot tell you a tube is GOOD.


                  A new 12AX7 swapped into a socket in seconds will tell you whether a tube was the issue or not way faster than using a tester.
                  Sorry but I disagree.
                  A sweeping statement of generalisation.
                  My AVO 160 tells me the characteristics of the valve under test which includes whether the valve has the correct Anode current at any given grid voltage that is dialed in both anode and grid voltages including G1, G2, G3, (G4 and G5 in the case of a heptode, 6J8G or EH90 etc), transconductance or µ, whether the valve is gassy, leaky, has damaged screen grids, low conductance etc.
                  So, yes you do determine whether the valve under test conforms to the data sheet supplied by the manufacturer, in the case of a good valve characteristic measuring tool.
                  I agree that some "Tube Testers" test not much more than for short circuits or no heaters. Fleabay offers etc.
                  Support for Fender, Laney, Marshall, Mesa, VOX and many more. https://jonsnell.co.uk
                  If you can't fix it, I probably can.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    How does your tester measure microphonics - especially where the tube only feeds back at a certain trigger frequency or volume level?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mick Bailey View Post
                      How does your tester measure microphonics - especially where the tube only feeds back at a certain trigger frequency or volume level?
                      No tester reads microphonics, that I am aware of. That is why I did not even suggest the AVO does.
                      Microphonics is not the sort of thing that can be 'read'. Only characteristics can be measured or read.
                      Microphonics take place under user conditions and vary with the supporting circuitry and tuning of the frequencies etc.
                      Support for Fender, Laney, Marshall, Mesa, VOX and many more. https://jonsnell.co.uk
                      If you can't fix it, I probably can.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jon Snell View Post

                        No tester reads microphonics, that I am aware of.
                        My Hickok TV3BU does. It has a couple of probe points labeled "Noise" that I have a small computer powered speaker plugged into. Tap, tap, tap.

                        It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Randall View Post

                          My Hickok TV3BU does. It has a couple of probe points labeled "Noise" that I have a small computer powered speaker plugged into. Tap, tap, tap.
                          I had heard (no pun intended) that one can listen for rustling noise but to be honest, tapping the valve on test shows up on the meter reading. It may not be a true sign of microphonics, just a noisy valve.
                          Very useful, I would think.
                          Support for Fender, Laney, Marshall, Mesa, VOX and many more. https://jonsnell.co.uk
                          If you can't fix it, I probably can.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here's your tube tester for microphonics (requires amp):
                            Attached Files
                            - Own Opinions Only -

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              That'll do it.
                              Support for Fender, Laney, Marshall, Mesa, VOX and many more. https://jonsnell.co.uk
                              If you can't fix it, I probably can.

                              Comment

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