Vox AC30/ 6 (TBX). Add an MV ?

[Helmholtz]

The Vol knobs on my AC 30 are -preamp- Vols??

Exactly!

So I do not have a power amp vol on this amp??

No, as that would be a Master Volume, which an AC30 doesn't have.

Just read my posts. I'm fed up of repeating myself over and over.

[Sea Chief]

Your AC30 has one preamp volume per channel.
The only way to get some distortion with this amp is to turn this volume knob up (as said, a booster or overdrive before the amp helps).
You could add a MV to bring loudness down, but will sacrifice power amp distortion.
As simple as that.

For other amps find and read the amp's manual.

The Vol knobs on my AC 30 are -preamp- Vols?? So I do not have a power amp vol on this amp?? I get more & more confused with every post.

One person says my Gain knob on my Randall should be considered like a MV. Next I'm told Gain things are preamp based. So I can only deduce from this that MV is preamp related (how can I not?). And this makes some form, a semblence of logic to me; IE I can only picture a situation where there's an ADDED/ ADDITIONAL knob that drives the preamp into clipping/ distortion.... & a *knob which controls the overall volume. What this *other knob is called I have not established yet; but; this basic principle, is the only thing I can possibly, logically accept.

Now. I might go just one tentative step further, & think it logical, that the *knob that has ultimate control over the final volume MIGHT be called the Master (BECAUSE the word suggests it has AUTHORITY over the knob which simply says Volume). But it seems the very opposite might be true if I'm told Gain is preamp, & MV is effectively like my Gain knob. Maybe HH means I have 3x MV's in my AC30, but no Vols. But the amp does say Vol. Strewth.

It's literally giving me headaches trying to decipher each reply, bouncing back & forth as to where this mystery MV relates to now, & like scary loud amp Pops I don't think it is good for my health/ stress.

(Loudness. It also seems I've now got a new word to add to the mix too. So now Vol & MV seems to have expanded to Gain, Loudness, Master Volume. Preamp Volume. Poweramp Volume).

---

Fluffy mini rescue horse. Need extra time tonight.

SC

[Helmholtz]

Your AC30 has one preamp volume per channel.
The only way to get some distortion with this amp is to turn this volume knob up (as said, a booster or overdrive before the amp helps).
You could add a MV to bring loudness down, but will sacrifice power amp distortion.
As simple as that.

For other amps find and read the amp's manual.

[g1]

Someone said too, that my Gain knob on my Randall RD5.. is effectively an MV knob, further mashing my head in.

No one said this.

[Sea Chief]

To be honest chaps I'm getting further away from understanding, more & more mixed up. This Gain thing for eg, now I read it's been used on the thread differently for both distortion, & well for something else (I don't understand enough to describe) possibly Gain stage... means this aspect instead of becoming clearer, has become doubly confusing. I'm not just a bit lost- I'm utterly bewildered by this aspect, plonked ontop, of the difference between vol & mv which I was already struggling with. But entirely my fault: I asked what this Gain knob is, & I shouldn't have in retrospect. I turn it & it's like a distortion pedal, so why I needed to know anymore than this, & confuse myself by asking what it actually is... wasn't neccessary (or was it relevant- so lost I cannot answer this).

Someone said too, that my Gain knob on my Randall RD5.. is effectively an MV knob, further mashing my head in. I was of the gradual thinking that this Gain aspect was becoming more & more set apart from this MV & Vol situation. Until someone said this. Crikey I got a noggin-wallop at this juncture.

The symbols on Orange amps, mean that instead of making things -easier- for you who understand all this, for me it = additional confusion. Why would they put symbols on would be my question, because it just makes things less clear.

I think I can only affect changes, tweak things, build things, amps even (sold a DR head I built, for £1234 on eBay 3 yrs ago!!).. without knowing how they work, what some knobs actually do, sigh. Nevermind.

To your credit chaps: you've shown me much kindness with your attempts! Very grateful indeed.

Capt

[Chuck H]

Wait, what'd I miss? Is this a good thing or bad thing? Where the hell am I? What happened to that guy's head?

Jusrin

If you look at Orange amp face plates you'll see that they often use symbols instead of words. The ones that do use words sometimes have both "gain" and "distortion" controls (as well as symbols). The idea being that they can be confusing and need decoding even more than other amps.

[Chuck H]

Here's a short post then.

The preamp is always situated before the power amp in the signal path. 'power amp before preamp' as used here just means the power amp clips before the preamp does because the preamp is feeding it too much signal.

Thank you Dave. I somehow missed in his wording that SC might be percievieving the power amp in front of the preamp. We have been clear that the power amp CLIPS before the preamp and never said it IS before the preamp. I'd even explained more than once that the preamp must remain clean in order to drive the power tubes to full amplifier wattage for a full volume clean sound. Maybe your wording rather than mine will help clarify what is happening for SC.

[Dave H]

My head aches trying to read the longer posts beforehand, sorry chaps. The notion of 'power amp before the preamp' still resolutely is counterintuitive, with the word PRE involved. This inherrantly means before. It cannot mean otherwise. I can't cope if the preamp is somehow to be considered AFTER the power amp. My head just will not accept it.

Here's a short post then.

The preamp is always situated before the power amp in the signal path. 'power amp before preamp' as used here just means the power amp clips before the preamp does because the preamp is feeding it too much signal.

[Justin Thomas]

Be glad it's not an Orange amp or Maybe Jusrin will do us a favor and decode one.

nosaj

Wait, what'd I miss? Is this a good thing or bad thing? Where the hell am I? What happened to that guy's head?

Jusrin

[nosaj]

Read Justin Thomas (clouds part and music *OOOOooooohhhhh!!!) who sayeth that modern amps like to use the moniker "gain" to mean "distortion" when applied to panel controls. If you see a knob labeled "gain" it's almost certainly a distortion control and the master volume function doesn't even need to be considered for the overall design. It's only WRT clean channels and vintage amp designs that the master volume can foul things up. That said...

Helmholts is ABSOLUTELY correct that gain is signal level. Either signal level in voltage or signal level in watts depending. This is how the word is used in the electronics nerd arena. So watch for that here because we might use the term gain on the forum differently than it is typically applied to guitar amp controls (sorry, that's just the reality). In our defence we were using the term correctly all along and it's the guitar amp manufacturers that allocated it to mean "distortion control" on amp faces. Like I said, Justin outlined it pretty well as to how knobs tend to be labeled for function on guitar amps. Though even then there can be confusing flyers in the group that still don't seem to make sense. So...

If you read us here using the term gain WRT a circuit we are strictly talking about signal level. Either voltage or power. If you read the word gain on an amplifier it's almost surely a knob to control the amount of distortion.

You don't have to become a nerd like us to "get it" but it very often feels that way. You're trying and getting a lot closer because of the tones you like and chase. So just chill and let it settle in. It will make sense some day. Or not? But I trust you'll find your way to happy sounds anyway. But don't stress. It doesn't help and it's counter productive to the artistic mind.

Be glad it's not an Orange amp or Maybe Jusrin will do us a favor and decode one.

nosaj

[Chuck H]

Read Justin Thomas (clouds part and music *OOOOooooohhhhh!!!) who sayeth that modern amps like to use the moniker "gain" to mean "distortion" when applied to panel controls. If you see a knob labeled "gain" it's almost certainly a distortion control and the master volume function doesn't even need to be considered for the overall design. It's only WRT clean channels and vintage amp designs that the master volume can foul things up. That said...

Helmholts is ABSOLUTELY correct that gain is signal level output relative to signal level input (thank you Helmholtz). Either signal level in voltage or signal level in watts depending. This is how the word is used in the electronics nerd arena. So watch for that here because we might use the term gain on the forum differently than it is typically applied to guitar amp controls (sorry, that's just the reality). In our defence we were using the term correctly all along and it's the guitar amp manufacturers that allocated it to mean "distortion control" on amp faces. Like I said, Justin outlined it pretty well as to how knobs tend to be labeled for function on guitar amps. Though even then there can be confusing flyers in the group that still don't seem to make sense. So...

If you read us here using the term gain WRT a circuit we are strictly talking about signal level input relative to output. Either voltage or power. If you read the word gain on an amplifier it's almost surely a knob to control the amount of distortion.

You don't have to become a nerd like us to "get it" but it very often feels that way. You're trying and getting a lot closer because of the tones you like and chase. So just chill and let it settle in. It will make sense some day. Or not? But I trust you'll find your way to happy sounds anyway. But don't stress. It doesn't help and it's counter productive to the artistic mind.

[Chuck H]

But this is what I meant by asking *if adding an MV to a non-master-amp, is akin to relabelling the Vol.. to MV, then the Vol just changes function to become the preamp Vol.

If so, then I'm finally getting somewhere. If not... then I'm stuffed.

This is pretty much correct. Though I might not have described it just like that. But you are getting there. re: not stuffed.

[Helmholtz]

I'm having trouble understand this 'clean signal' phenomenon, especially with regard to the Vox TB as it is known to have an extra gain stage (or something? Extra tube anyway) to facilitate distortion. So I was under the impression the TR and the Vox are chalk & cheese. Clean vs dirty amps.

The "Top" in Top Boost (TB) stands for treble.
The additional stage in the TB AC30s was added to increase treble response.
The earlier non-TB AC30s had only one preamp gain stage allowing even less distortion.

I'm having trouble with the notion of what Gain is..

Gain means signal amplification. A gain stage amplifies the signal, so at its output the signal is (much) larger than at its input.
The larger the signal the more distortion it produces in the following amp stages.
A volume pot is used to lower the gain (and signal strength) and thus lowers volume and distortion when dialed back.

[Sea Chief]

I'm having trouble understand this 'clean signal' phenomenon, especially with regard to the Vox TB as it is known to have an extra gain stage (or something? Extra tube anyway) to facilitate distortion. So I was under the impression the TR and the Vox are chalk & cheese. Clean vs dirty amps.

I'm having trouble with the notion of what Gain is, the word seems to pop up whenever it wants to, there's a knob with this mystery word on too which I don't know what it is (but all my ears tell me it kinda just sounds like a distortion pedal in the amp- is it??). I specifically chose to exclude this word Gain, as with the Vox, there is no such knob with Gain on. There is on the Randall.. but whether including this 5w amp as an example is helpful, or has been nothing but a hinderance to my grasp of this MV addition idea, I can't tell.

SC

[Sea Chief]

Further to this point:
Master Volume can allow preamp distortion by reducing the signal into the power amp.
Again, you need to understand the concept that a MV set on 10 is the equivalent of a non-master amp. You can't get preamp distortion because it's just too loud (when master on 10).
Dial down the master and you can boost up the preamp vol. creating preamp distortion.
The increased preamp volume is what is responsible for the distortion, but the master (at lower settings) allows you to dial the preamp vol up without going deaf.

But this is what I meant by asking *if adding an MV to a non-master-amp, is akin to relabelling the Vol.. to MV, then the Vol just changes function to become the preamp Vol.

If so, then I'm finally getting somewhere. If not... then I'm stuffed. I just can't understand it huge apologies.

I can almost understand -this- post ^^ by g1 IF this* is correct, otherwise I'm back to square 1 & tbh I'm just never going to understand it.

My head aches trying to read the longer posts beforehand, sorry chaps. The notion of 'power amp before the preamp' still resolutely is counterintuitive, with the word PRE involved. This inherrantly means before. It cannot mean otherwise. I can't cope if the preamp is somehow to be considered AFTER the power amp. My head just will not accept it.

Thanks chaps, SC