cleaner sound from fender deluxe

[chris shaw]

hi all
I've just built an ab763 based fender deluxe reverb . Its great but its breaking up way early (especially with a speaker attenuator )
I would like ideas on how to clean it up - is it a question of changing valves - if so at which stage - its got 12ax7s and the 6l6's - which should I change and suggestions what to in terms of manufacturer for sweet jazzy tone
or is it components in preamp circuit ?

YOu've always helped me , I'm sure you will again
thanks again

[txstrat]

Most Fender amps start to break up at around 4-5 in one or another way. To get more (really audible) clean headroom there's more to it than changing the circuit. You need a beefier OT, different output tubes and a PT which can handle the additional current. BTW all this might result in changing the genuine sound of your present amp design.
If you still want to try you could start with a 5751 preamp tube in stage one. That should keep the amp a little on the clean side.
Smaller plate resistors might be another try but keep an eye on the plate voltages.

[chris shaw]

clean headroom

thanks tx
its breaking up way before 4 -5 . It has got worse since I started using an attenuator (see attached pic. ) although the attenuator really works well apart from that
probably the 5751 is a way forward-- any comments on best manufacturers?

[txstrat]

Here are some reviews: 12AX7 / 7025 / ECC83 Tube Types

[ThermionicScott]

How does it function without the attenuator? Maybe the output tubes are getting tired.

- Scott

[chris shaw]

lower gain tubes

thanks guy
can I use low gain tubes belw 5751 like12ay/t7 ?-- any advice on what to NOT do or on best types?
also it seems less distorted without the soak
is that cos the soak is working the output tubes too hard?
if thats the case will replacing preamp tubes do anything ?

[ThermionicScott]

thanks guy
can I use low gain tubes belw 5751 like12ay/t7 ?-- any advice on what to NOT do or on best types?
also it seems less distorted without the soak
is that cos the soak is working the output tubes too hard?
if thats the case will replacing preamp tubes do anything ?

Changing the preamp tubes won't help the output tubes at all.

Attenuators aren't by themselves hard on the output tubes, but with them, you're more likely to drive them hard, which *will* wear them out faster.

If you don't have a spare set of fresh output tubes, you ought to buy some. Then, you could swap them in and see if the old ones sound weak by comparison.

- Scott

[chris shaw]

output tube replacement

thanks scott
I doubt that theyre worn out as the amp is brand new and has probably less than 2 hours total play but will seek out replacements/ spares nonetheless

[Steve Conner]

If you think the amp breaks up too early, why are you using it with a power soak? Take the power soak off and you'll have more clean headroom.

You can't have it both ways, late breakup and quiet cranked tone are mutually exclusive.

[JoeM]

What speaker are you using? A very efficient speaker will help get the maximum clean sound. And as Steve said, turn off the attenuator.

[chris shaw]

steve/ joe
thanks guys
i know so little I didnt realise the attenuator would accelerate breakup!
i know now--
the speaker is a weber alnico -- I put a similar unit ina gibson ga19rvt and it works a treat -
Basically the breakup without attenuator is fine but without it the amp is too loud for my gigs or practice- hence my efforts to attenuate/ reduce volume- basically with the thing barely on at all its still real loud for my purposes
sounds like I may just have to build something a little quieter-- maybe a princeton or something
or maybe build something into a new smaller cab and buy a reverb pedal
-- it seems lowering the output volume whilt retaining its tone is a big ask?

thanks for your help chaps

[mike a]

Try a Voltage regulator

I just completed a 5E3 and found it really loud for my use. I installed a voltage regulator that allows for adjustment to B+ and therefore lets me control the output volume while maintaining the Tweed sound. I odered a kit from Trinity Amps and it was quite easy to install. I put in a push/pull on/off pot in place of the Standby switch, this keeps the standby switch and when I put a chicken head on it it looks like it belongs.

I just installed it yesterday but in the little time i have used it i like it and I an sure my wife and neighbours do too. There is lots more tone and sound adjustment now.

Attached is a link to Trinity's Forum site and a good description of how the VRM is installed.
trinityamps.com :: View topic - Deluxe VRM installation

Their main web site is
Welcome to Trinity Amps

Cheers
Mike

[Chuck H]

With the exception of bypassing the attenuator and a more eficient speaker, NONE of what is suggested will give your amp a louder clean tone or more headroom. The old 'lower gain preamp tube' trick is pure bogus. All it does is make it so you need to set your volume knob higher for the same volume you had before at a lower volume setting with the higher gain preamp tube. It absolutely will not give you Deluxe more headroom or louder clean volume. The adjustable B+ is 'power scaling' and is not very different from using an attenuator. By using power scaling or an attenuator you actually turn THE WHOLE AMP DOWN. The relative volume difference between the clean and overdriven tones on your amp remains constant. When you use an attenuator (or power scaling) to turn down your OD tone you also turn down your clean tone by the same margin. And you won't find a feedback resistor in your circuit. Even if you did, as guitar tones go, increasing or decreasing a feedback resistor from stock usually only effects loudness at the expense of clean-ness. Using or building a smaller amp will be the same as using the attenuator (or power scaling) because all you have done is scale down the whole scenario again. Yes, a smaller amp will give you a lower cranked OD volume, but it will have less clean volume too in direct proportion to how much queter the OD is compared to your Deluxe.

Probably your best solution is to use the amp with the attenuator for songs you don't need a clean tone on. Use the amp without the attenuator for everything else. The bypass switch is easy ti flip and the Deluxe only has three knobs, so between song adjustments should be managable. For those times on stage when you need a clean AND a dirty tone just keep the amp set up for clean (with the attenuator bypassed) and use a stomp box as a compromise.

If you need a reason to build another amp... You could build another Deluxe and dedicate one for clean and one for dirty and A/B between them. They are fairly portable so two isn't that bad.

One thing I don't get is that the Deluxe is fairly good at being clean or dirty depending on how you play or the guitars volume setting. There usually isn't a huge difference between the clean and OD tones of the amp. Unless you need to jump between crystal squeaky clean and full shred monkey tone all the time.

Chuck

[d95err]

i know so little I didnt realise the attenuator would accelerate breakup!

"Breaks up earlier" could mean different things. If you mean it breaks up when less loud, then that is of course what an attenuator is for.

If you mean that e.g. it breaks up e.g. at "5" on the volume knob without attenuator and "3" with the attenuator, then there is something seriously wrong...

It can be difficult to be truly objective when listening with different levels of attenuations, because the ears will respond differently at different loudness levels. You should make a simple recording with and without the attenuator (but the all other settings the same). Play them back at the same volume to know what's really happening with the sound.

[mac1amps]

FWIW, yet ANOTHER reason why you're experiencing "early" break-up may be because you only made a One-channel Deluxe. When two preamp channels "join-up" in the preamp, as with the Fender-made models, they "load" each other down and [sometimes significantly] reduce the overall gain.