vibroverb63RI bigger tranny help needed.

[ballynally]

I usually take my VV to gigs. A few times i was a little drowned out in volume. I would like to try a bigger output tranny like a bassman. Apart from the swap, is there anything else i need to change in the amp because of this or know before i do that. I am fairly happy with the sound as it is. Will it change it with the bigger iron? I already optimized the speakers. Also,if i do , should i get a (bassman) tranny from Fender or should i go to other makers, like Magnetic Components

[MWJB]

A larger tranny may nominally increase clean headroom, but there are more practical routes in the first instance.

Have you tried a lower mu tube, like a 12AT7 in V6 (phase inverter)? Perhaps even a 5751 in V1/V2?

Have you tried tighter, cleaner power tubes? Don't bias to max suggested plate dissipation, 30-35mA (13-15W per tube) should be fine in most cases.

A common problem with 2x10 amps is the difficulty for the player to monitor himself from the back line, if you are having trouble hearing yourself the easiestthing to do is to get the amp well up off the floor.

The VV 63 RI only has moderate plate voltage compared to many other 6L6 equipped Fenders, so it's always going to give away a little outright volume.

[imaradiostar]

A more efficient speaker or more speakers will help as well.

I play a lot of church/worship gigs and I always end up with my 25 watt 7591 amp set slightly dirty and attenuated 8 or 12 dB with a hotplate and the cabinet on a chair or on the floor in front of me. I lean it back so it's aimed toward me- often with a vocal wedge on one side and a 1x12 guitar cab on the other. If your band has a decent PA just mic the amp and put it in your wedge.

You could always get a long speaker cable and a small 1x10 or 1x12 guitar cab to use as a "guitar wedge." I have a Dr. Fong monitor that works well this way since it's already wedge shaped. Keep the Vibroverb in the backline so it looks cool and projects to the audience but monitor your guitar up front with the second cab.

jamie

[Chuck H]

I already optimized the speakers.

What make and model? Do you know the SPL for them?

[ballynally]

What make and model? Do you know the SPL for them?

Eminence Copperhead and Celestion V10.

[ballynally]

yes, that's exactly what i have done.GE 5751 in V1 and RCA long blackplate in V2.12AT7 in both Rev and PI. The VV holds up better now and the volume keeps going without the habitual VV breakup at 4-5, also performs better with the more efficient Eminence Copperhead and Celestion speakers instead of the blueframe Alnicos that were in there. I am hoping to get an even tighter bass with the bigger tranny. Mind you, it is already pretty good. So, i'm wondering about this specific tranny upgrade

[MWJB]

If I was going to upgrade the OT, I'd go the whole hog & fit a 100W Showman OT (4x6L6 into 8ohms) then rewire your speakers to 16ohms in series to get the right reflected impedance.

[Chuck H]

Eminence Copperhead and Celestion V10.

Eminence Copperhead: SPL 99dB
Celestion V10: SPL 97dB

That's good, but not as efficient as you can get. The Eminence Red Fang is very efficient for a 10" (very popular for tone but $$$) with an SPL of 102dB. A pair would give you a 3.5dB increase. That's more volume increase than doubling your wattage.

There are many other popular 10" speakers an SPL of 100dB or 101dB. Even a pair at with an SPL of 100dB would be an increase of 2dB which is almost the same volume increase as doubling your wattage.

Perhaps the speakers have been "optimized" for tone. But I wouldn't say they've been optimized for efficiency.

EDIT: If your amps seems strangley low in volume, perhaps your speakers are wired out of phase. Make sure they aren't.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

And, check "where in the frequencies" the SPL is +100dB with speaker manufacturer's specs. Many times it is "sales brochure" BS of what the average SPL is as nobody really wants to listen to +105dBs at 3000Hz-3500Hz.. etc.

[Chuck H]

+1
There is also percieved loudness. That is, which frequencies work with the amp itself and where it needs to be in the mix to sound good and be heard. Mixing speakers becomes tricky in this regard. If you have two identical speakers that have a pronounced hump at, say 1k, your're really going to hear 1k. Where mixed speakers may have humps and valleys that contradict each other (for better or worse).

[pdf64]

My BF Fender based amp (1x12) uses a VV sized PT. I originally had the VV size OT also but decided to try a bassman size OT. It was an obvious improvement, even my drummer asked what I'd done to the amp! The tone gained a solid bottom end and smooth top end, the previous tone seemed by comparison to be squeezed through the mid range, not much real bottom at high levels with a slightly ragged top end. Possibly fraction more sound level but it may not give you the lift you're looking for.
Of course that's going from memory, an A/B test wasn't possible.
So different speakers / cab angling may be more productive. Also mitchell foam donuts are great for getting rid of excessive beaminess / getting a consistent tone around the room Speaker Directivity Modifier :: TGP Webzine
Pete.

[Chuck H]

Agreed.

Bigger OT will often make for a more solid/bigger sound. It won't make as much of a volume difference as more efficient speakers though.

[ballynally]

If I was going to upgrade the OT, I'd go the whole hog & fit a 100W Showman OT (4x6L6 into 8ohms) then rewire your speakers to 16ohms in series to get the right reflected impedance.

That's precisely what i'm avoiding to do. If i go 4 6L6 i might as well get a head like a Showman w separate cab. No, i like the 2 6L6 valve saturation fine for most gigs. Still in combo form without the weight of a Twin.

[ballynally]

Agreed.

Bigger OT will often make for a more solid/bigger sound. It won't make as much of a volume difference as more efficient speakers though.

Good points, everyone.I'm happy with the Copperhead.The Celestion might have a lower SPL, but has a lift in the mid range. Sounds level in volume w the Copperhead, to my ears.I think it's a good mix.I know it can be tricky mixing speakers. Might try the suggested Red Fang or Ramrod.Can't go on forever with this though.

[MWJB]

You said that you wanted to upgrade the OT, that's exactly what I suggest above. I never said anything about converting to 4x6L6, your PT can't take it anyway. I suggested the Showman style OT (100W, 1.9K:8ohms) because it will work with 2x6L6 & your speaker wired for 16ohms (~3.8K:16ohms - Google "Output transformer turns ratio"). Otherwise you would need a 100W OT with a 2ohm output to work as intended with 2x6L6 and a 4ohm load...and you don't see many 100" 2Ohm OTs.