Blackface Channel on 5e3

[Zer09]

I find the Normal channel of my 5e3 to be essentially useless. I don't use it at all. I'm considering adding a blackface filter on this channel to make it useable for rhythm playing. The mod is from one of Gerald Weber's books. It consists of replacing the 0.1uf cap on pin 1 of V1 with a filter consisting of a 0.1uf cap in series with a 100pf cap and 220k resistor in parallel.

Anybody have any experience with using this filter? Does it work? How effective is it with a single tone control? Does it come close to blackface clean?

[Chuck H]

A schem or drawing of the mod would help for evaluation. I doubt anyone here has done many mods from the Weber books. Not that they aren't valid (though I've seen some questionable ones).

Off the top I can say that the filter as it's described won't really do anything to simulate the mid scoop of a BF preamp. It basically adds series resistance to all frequencies below 10k. Since not much over about 6k is really useful for guitar amps I would think this mod will only reduce gain a tiny amount and add hiss due to added series resistance and the cap passing only very high frequencies. It doesn't sound like something "I" would do if I wanted to make a 5e3 sound more BF. There are other drawbacks to modding only one channel. Since the channels are interactive, whatever you do to change the tone of one channel will also change how that channel interacts with the unmodded channel. So the tone of both channels will change, for better or worse.

[Zer09]

Thanks Chuck, that's why I asked. In particular I was concerned about the interaction of the 2 channels. It didn't seem so cut and dry. The amp is what it is. As much as I love it for blues and lead playing it just doesn't cut it for clean rhythm for my uses. Maybe I'm better off just tinkering with cap values to brighten it up and make it more useable.

This question is essentially born out of laziness. I want both the the bright channel tones of the 5e3 with blackface clean tones in one amp and I don't want to modify one of my blackface amps. I think I'm going to have to build a blackface style amp with a modded tweed style channel.

[pdf64]

How about using the 5E3 bright channel for rhythm and the normal for lead. Use an A/B box to select. Maybe try a boost or eq pedal patched into the one or both channels. Such an arrangement could be very flexible. Pete.

[Chuck H]

Many players find the 5e3 too bassy. Smaller cathode bypass and grid coupling caps are common mods.

No reason a 5e3 can't get a good clean tone. I think Weber actually covers it in his book. Once one gets to know the interactions of the channels and possibly do a little revoicing for their style/guitar I think anyone short of a metal head could be happy with a 5e3.

[frus]

I think I'm going to have to build a blackface style amp with a modded tweed style channel.

well the 5e3 tweediness is all about power rail sag, cathode bias, no NFB, cathodyne PI, OT and speaker, so you'll find it hard to make a tweed channel out of blakface amp by just modding the preamp

[Zer09]

What I'm searching for is the cleans of my deluxe reverb with the low volume dirt from my deluxe and I'm glad I asked this question before doing anything. The response from Chuck made me do a search for reviews of Weber's mods. Couldn't find any on his tweed to blackface mod. I think that speaks volumes. The reviews of his blackface to tweed mods were not very encouraging. It looks like most people end up undoing the mods. They didn't sound realistic when I read them, mainly for the reasons in the posts above. They are far too different for preamp changes to make them the same.

So I'm going to try PDF's suggestion and put an EQ pedal in front of the Normal channel. If that fails I'll tinker with cap values on that channel to make it more usable. Either way I think my best bet is going to be just to start using my twin (5e8a) head with an attenuator. I love the breakup with from that amp and actually like the rhythm sounds when I use it with ceramic speakers. The only problem is the difference in volume to get that breakup, hence the attenuator. Not blackface sparkle but it I don't cringe the way I do with the 5e3.

[Zer09]

Many players find the 5e3 too bassy. Smaller cathode bypass and grid coupling caps are common mods.

No reason a 5e3 can't get a good clean tone. I think Weber actually covers it in his book. Once one gets to know the interactions of the channels and possibly do a little revoicing for their style/guitar I think anyone short of a metal head could be happy with a 5e3.

You're not kidding about the bass, though I've been able to get around the problem by adjusting playing style. When I was building this amp I picked up an old pair of early 60's Jensen C12NF's (the HiFi version of the C12N) that were reconed to C12N specs-best $80 I ever spent! As soon as I got them I put one in my deluxe reverb and after breaking it sounded wonderful. I put the other in the 5e3 and couldn't believe all of the bass. I played the amp for a few weeks at practices and it wouldn't go away. I swapped with the speaker in the deluxe reverb and it was the same. It took some getting used to but it actually has been useful at times.

I do agree that you can get some nice clean tones from the amp but it does not do individual note articulation like a blackface amp. What I mean by that is it doesn't do Little Wing or Red Hot Chili Peppers well though it has been surprising great for Judas Priest (with a pedal of course). But I guess Judas Priest is mild by today's standards.

[Ben N]

Dude, you've already got the best of both worlds--

why water it down? Forget the mods, forget the Twin, forget the eq pedal. Get yourself an ABY, or, better, a pan pedal, and take the DR AND the Deluxe, and you'll be in Fender tone heaven--end to end. (Just make sure to test for ground loop hum before the gig.) Having once done something with a similar rig, I can tell you that a stereo chorus/vibe or delay can be entrancing through that kind of setup.

[Zer09]

why water it down? Forget the mods, forget the Twin, forget the eq pedal. Get yourself an ABY, or, better, a pan pedal, and take the DR AND the Deluxe, and you'll be in Fender tone heaven--end to end. (Just make sure to test for ground loop hum before the gig.) Having once done something with a similar rig, I can tell you that a stereo chorus/vibe or delay can be entrancing through that kind of setup.

Ben,
That's what I do when space permits. Since i started this thread I've discovered that my twin sounds great through the the single speaker in my DR- an old reconed C12N. So what I've done is created a setup where my twin head sits on top of the deluxe reverb and I a/b switch between the 2 amps into the single speaker. The only drawback is that I have to use an attenuator to match the twin head's 4 ohm output to the 8 ohm DR speaker because it sounds like Keith Richards heaven that way. I also switch the DR amp to a dummy load before switching. Took some getting used to and I can't switch mid song but it works for me. It can fit in tight space, uses only equuipment that I already owned, and required zero mods. It would be a bit easier with one of those boxes Weber sells for switching between multiple heads but my way was free.

[Ben N]

Randy Aiken used to have a schematic on his website for a "Headswitch" to do exactly that, safely. He took it down because he was worried about noobs messing it up and resulting liability. But I have a copy, so if you're interested, and you swear you know what you're doing and promise to use only as directed, I might be persuaded to send it to you. :-] BTW, I never built it, so I can't vouch for it in any way shape or form, other than to say that it came from Mr. Aiken's own hand. Once it's yours, you're on your own.