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Hot power tranny in Princeton Reverb

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  • Hot power tranny in Princeton Reverb

    Brief background on this amp. Bought the Princeton Reverb SF in a pawnshop about 15 years ago, not working well. Original cabinet had been chopped into "head". It was my first tube amp, I got it running, and it is what I learned my tube amp chops on. It has been modified and experimented with many times, including some short periods when I played it with 6L6's in it. This was before I understood the filament current limits in the Princeton power tranny. In spite of that abuse, I apparently didn't harm it. Recently I picked up a nice reproduction Princeton cabinet with a 12" baffle and decided to restore the old Princeton. There are almost no original components in it, but the circuit is close to original.

    I reduced the size of the coupling cap going into the PI to cut out some of the bass, put 470 ohm screen resistors and 1.5K grid stoppers on the outputs. I replaced the original output tranny with a Mercury Magnetics Deluxe Reverb tranny that has 2,4, and 8 ohm taps, so I can use my 4 ohm Vintage 30 in it. I'm also using a 5AR4 rectifier. I added bias control mounted where the vibrato pedal goes. I set the bias at 24ma. Plate voltage is 420 so it's idling around 10 watts. I have a new matches set of JJ 6V6 outputs in it.

    The other night, after playing it for a while, I turned down the volume and left in on for a few hours. My intention was the burn the tubes in and recheck the bias later. I notice a hot smell. It was in a dark corner of a room and there were no glowing tubes or smoke, but when I touched the power tranny it was too hot to keep my finger on it!!

    Because this is the first time I've ever left it on for several hours, I don't know if this is normal. I'm thinking it's possible I may have damaged the filament windings long ago when I put 6L6 outputs in it. So, I'm thinking about replacing it, and I found out that Allen amps sells a heavy duty drop in replacement for it that has more secondary and filament current capacity, that would allow me to safely use 6L6s if I wanted to, although I'm pretty happy with the sound of the 6V6s in it now.

    The question is, should the power tranny be getting too hot to touch after idling for several hours?

  • #2
    Originally posted by casey73 View Post
    The question is, should the power tranny be getting too hot to touch after idling for several hours?
    Casey,

    This question has come up many times before.
    In my personal experience, many Fender PTs get too hot to touch after idling for several hours. The early Deluxe Reverbs come to mind as another amp with this "feature".

    Would it be better if the transformer did not get so hot? Yes. (But Fender "undersized the PTs in many of their amps by some people's standards)
    Does this mean that something is wrong with your PT? Maybe. Maybe not.

    I'm assuming that the stock 1A fuse is not blowing. Right?

    If the PT gets hot with all the secondary windings disconnected then you know it's bad for sure.

    Otherwise, now you will be on to a discussion of the merits of the upgrade.

    Regards,
    Tom

    Comment


    • #3
      I haven't heard of a power tranny getting hot as a symptom of failure. If running the 6L6s did damage it should have ceased to function or you would have noticed smoke or a smell.

      When it got hot last time, did you notice a smell? Dripping varnish or wax is also a symptom of a PT getting too hot.

      Some power trannys do get quite hot. If you want to know if the filament winding is damaged you can simply test the voltage and make sure it's putting out 6.3 volts (likely more due to modern wall voltages). Then pull the power tubes and recheck to make sure it didn't go up by more than about .1 volts. AFAIK that tranny should be able to handle the extra .9 watts drawn by the 6L6s. It is overdesigned by more than that. You could plug in the 6L6s and recheck the voltage. If it reads the same as with 6V6s then there should be no problem.

      HTH

      Chuck
      "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

      "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

      "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
      You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
        It is overdesigned by more than that.
        HTH

        Chuck
        I disagree here.
        Of all the Fender amps I've worked on with bad power trannys, the Princeton, Princeton Reverb and the Vibro-Champ are the ones I've replaced more power transformers in then any of the others amps combined... probably times 5.
        I think they could be the weak link in those amps.... especially when owners randomly stick 6L6s in them, or break the key way pin off the power or rectifier tube and stick them in wrong. Happens... I see it all the time.
        Bruce

        Mission Amps
        Denver, CO. 80022
        www.missionamps.com
        303-955-2412

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Bruce, I only know for sure that the Deluxe Reverb PT can handle 6L6s. I assumed that the Princeton would too. I hate to give misinformation, so thank you.

          I guess I should stop running a 6L6 in that VibroChamp... I thought that would be a better tube for a single ended amp at 423 Vp.

          FWIW the voltage test is still a good idea. But in light of that PTs frailty I would think a replacement is a better idea if the amp will run 6L6s sometimes.

          What about the OT.?. How well will the Princeton OT handle 6L6s?

          Chuck
          "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

          "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

          "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
          You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes the heater filament voltage test is still valid.

            As far as the OT with 6L6s goes;
            Well, the wire in the PR OT secondary is probably as thick or maybe thicker then any 500ma secondary fuse so it probably would hold up for a while.
            When a customer wants to run 6L6s in these, I always try to push hard for a reissue Deluxe Reverb OT installation. With a 5AR4 or SS rectifier plug, and proper bias, they always sound really good.
            I've not had one come back for a bad OT when doing this swap but I have had them come back and swap the 6L6s out for the 6V6s again! ha ha.
            I think they sound even better with the Deluxe OT and 6V6s.
            Bruce

            Mission Amps
            Denver, CO. 80022
            www.missionamps.com
            303-955-2412

            Comment


            • #7
              The fact that it was sitting without being played through means that no air was being moved by the speaker.Sometimes just this little bit of moving air helps keep things cooler.
              Just a thought.

              Comment


              • #8
                I still wonder, why not put a small wisper fan in these cabinets?

                Comment


                • #9
                  So I've got a customer who wants a replacement PT before his BF tranny goes bad. He'll keep the old PT and swap it back in if sells the amp.
                  Is there a recommended replacement? Mojo vs. Allen?
                  I don't think he's going to put out for a Mercury.

                  thanks,
                  Marc

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't have enough experience with any of these transformers to recommend one over the others but I've had no trouble with the Allen or Mojo transformers I've used. My understanding is that the Allen transformers are "upgrades" in they are able to handle more current than the original Fender transformers - the Mojo transformers being more of a drop in replacement with original equipment ratings. The Allens are great for beefing up a lower powered amp.

                    Recently I've been using the Hammond drop in Fender replacement transformers with good results.

                    I would be interested in hearing about others opinions of any of these transformers.

                    Comment

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