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Need more sizzle on Super-Sonic 22 burn channel

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  • Need more sizzle on Super-Sonic 22 burn channel

    I'd like to boost 8kHz and up about 6 dB on the Fender Super-Sonic 22 burn channel.

    Seems like C25 is the low pass filter that cuts signal above 1 kHz. So am I right that a 120 pF cap in parallel with R50 (220k) would achieve my objective, or am I in a world of hurt by doing that?

    Is there a better place/way to meet my aims?

    Schematic here: https://www.thetubestore.com/lib/the...-Schematic.pdf
    Last edited by electronhole; 08-13-2020, 10:12 PM.

  • #2
    R50 is effectively in series with the source impedance from the tone stack, and in parallel with R51. So the LPF freq will be around 2kHz.
    How does it sound if C25 is lifted?
    My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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    • #3
      8kHz? The SPL of most guitar speakers is down by at least 15dB at 8kHz. Otherwise nothing wrong with trying your idea.
      - Own Opinions Only -

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post
        8kHz? The SPL of most guitar speakers is down by at least 15dB at 8kHz. Otherwise nothing wrong with trying your idea.
        Well, if you ever use an MXR 10 band EQ on a darker amp with high gain, you'll notice that its 8 kHz slider and 16 kHz slider (the latter is a shelving filter) affects the tone quite a bit—more than just "air". It changes how forward the sound is. It's like having a Presence control with a little bit of harsh lower treble content removed.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by electronhole View Post

          Well, if you ever use an MXR 10 band EQ on a darker amp with high gain, you'll notice that its 8 kHz slider and 16 kHz slider (the latter is a shelving filter) affects the tone quite a bit—more than just "air". It changes how forward the sound is. It's like having a Presence control with a little bit of harsh lower treble content removed.
          Well then you're probably best off to attempt your boost as early in the signal chain as possible. Helmholtz is right that there isn't a lot to be gained by boosting 8k in the final tone. It seems like what you're after is something that changes the character of the overdrive and harmonics generated in the preamp clipping.?.

          I haven't looked at the schem yet. Doing that now...
          "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

          "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

          "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chuck H View Post

            Well then you're probably best off to attempt your boost as early in the signal chain as possible. Helmholtz is right that there isn't a lot to be gained by boosting 8k in the final tone. It seems like what you're after is something that changes the character of the overdrive and harmonics generated in the preamp clipping.?.

            I haven't looked at the schem yet. Doing that now...
            The EQ was in the loop. Boosted 8k and 16k. Amp running low enough not to generate distortion post-loop. The change in tone boosting 8kHz & 16kHz +6dB in the loop is dramatic. The resulting tone is lively and present without being harsh. Carvin tube amps had Presence controls at 10 kHz. It adds a tremendous amount of glass, sparkle, and sizzle. A boost in that range was also what gave old C12R Jensens their amazing crunch.

            In other words, I'd like it later in the chain, but not necessarily before the phase inverter. But maybe it doesn't hurt to have it in the NFB loop.

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            • #7
              R42 is the earliest place in the circuit to boost highs without affecting the clean channel. A 100p cap parallel with R42 should boost 8k about 8dB. That would be a lot, so refinement may be needed.?.

              EDIT: We were posting simultaneously. Maybe try a 100p cap across R42. Don't be surprised if the added HF induces instability under some settings and playing circumstances.
              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

              "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
                EDIT: We were posting simultaneously. Maybe try a 100p cap across R42. Don't be surprised if the added HF induces instability under some settings and playing circumstances.
                Thanks! I'll try there if my method doesn't work out.

                And yes, your concerns are the kind of thing I'm worried about. I know the physics, but I don't know the risk of oscillations as well, or if I'll end up getting RF pouring in somehow.

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                • #9
                  Juust a thought. When you advance the 8k control, the Q of the circuit is not large, so when you add +12db at 8k, you are also boosting 4k and further down, though to a lesser extent.

                  Borrow a 31 band EQ where you can lop off the very top end and explore what just the 3-5k area does,
                  Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by electronhole View Post

                    The EQ was in the loop. Boosted 8k and 16k. Amp running low enough not to generate distortion post-loop. The change in tone boosting 8kHz & 16kHz +6dB in the loop is dramatic. The resulting tone is lively and present without being harsh. Carvin tube amps had Presence controls at 10 kHz. It adds a tremendous amount of glass, sparkle, and sizzle. A boost in that range was also what gave old C12R Jensens their amazing crunch.

                    In other words, I'd like it later in the chain, but not necessarily before the phase inverter. But maybe it doesn't hurt to have it in the NFB loop.
                    In your initial post, you said you wanted more highs in the burn channel only. If you make any mods post preamp, it will affect both channels. So, which do you want?
                    "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Dude View Post

                      In your initial post, you said you wanted more highs in the burn channel only. If you make any mods post preamp, it will affect both channels. So, which do you want?
                      No doubt--that's why I said maybe. Having it for the burn channel is good, but maybe it makes most sense in the NFB if that's safest. I don't want oscillations, and it seems like the NFB is best place to avoid that since there's no more tubes besides the power section. But if I can be reasonably certain that the preamp mods are sufficient, I'll go that route. Just don't want it going nuts in some environment that drives the amp crazy.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Enzo View Post
                        Juust a thought. When you advance the 8k control, the Q of the circuit is not large, so when you add +12db at 8k, you are also boosting 4k and further down, though to a lesser extent.

                        Borrow a 31 band EQ where you can lop off the very top end and explore what just the 3-5k area does,
                        I hear ya'. That's why I chose a cap value of 120pF, since it will force f(cutoff) at +3dB to be near 6 kHz, which allows the full 6dB boost by 8kHz. So yes, you're right: I am desiring lower harmonics as well, and I did account for it. I boosted the 16 kHz slider as well on the MXR 10-band. It also gives the sound a nice lift since it's a shelving EQ.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by electronhole View Post

                          ...but maybe it makes most sense in the NFB if that's safest. I don't want oscillations, and it seems like the NFB is best place to avoid that since there's no more tubes besides the power section.
                          I don't generally agree that "the NFB is the best place".

                          Amp instability is often related to the global NFB in the power amp section. So changes can be critical. Not saying that it can't be done especially as you would reduce NFB at high frequencies.
                          Last edited by Helmholtz; 08-14-2020, 05:45 PM.
                          - Own Opinions Only -

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post

                            I don't generally agree that "the NFB is the best place".

                            Amp instability is often related to the global NFB in the power amp section. So changes can be critical. Not saying that it can't be done especially as you would reduce NFB at high frequencies.
                            Thanks!

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                            • #15
                              In other words... It's a semi complex amp in that it's a high gain channel switcher and that means attention and effort went into the design regarding grounding, layout and lead dress where stability is concerned. Very often with such amps changing anything is a crap shoot for stable results. Though I think adding a presence circuit is probably a safe bet. Be sure to route any NFB control well away from the preamp board circuitry and leads.
                              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                              "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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