Inane question

[ArturoQ]

Hello,
I really love the sound of the 57 Tweed Bassman clean. The problem is I don't have the place to play it or the fantastic cost. My first is can a modified blues junior ever be made to sound like the real thing in a bedroom, house with close neighbors, volumes. Secondly is there a small amp currently available that would give the "what I describe as" clean, rich range of tone/sound of the bassman, in the same environment, if the Blues Jr. mods are not possible?
Thanks for the indulgences

[Enzo]

It is exceedingly tough to get stage tone at bedroom levels. One problem is your ears do not hear the same at low levels as they do at louder sounds. Small speakers just don't sound the same as larger ones. A Champ has a great interesting tone, but sounds nothing like a BAssman.

[J M Fahey]

A Blues Junior comes straight from a Tweed Bassma, has its genes inside, and can be set up in a very similar way getting 90% of the tone ... as far as the "electrical" part is concerned.

Minimum Mod you will need is removing brightness killing C 9? (fuzzy schematic) 1500pF in parallel with Master volume MURDERING anything above 2kHz .... WHAT were they thinking?
Yea, I know, somebody complained distortion was buzzy at bedroom levels

If at all possible remove/bypass V2b which is there to give you preamp distortion,you don´t ned it.
Tone stack should go straight into Power Amp PI

You might rewire currently unused V2a as a cathode follower driving tone stack to get even closer.

You should replace current power amp feedback net by Tweed values, including Presence pot; you can use now useless Master Volume hole.

Forget Reverb, in any case Tweed never had one.

Or plain gut it, meaning remove full PCB and controls, and build a real Tweed there using an eyelet board, jut slightly modding Power Amp to use current EL84.

VERY important : get 4 or at least two (in absolute need just one) Jensen C10R (P10r will be more expensive); speakers arev50% or more of final amp sound, as mentioned above.

All that said, you´ll still need to play amp somewhat loud, so called Fender Clean is not *really* clean (or it would be boring), you rise it up until you get a little bit of rough for flavour.

Not sure about your neighbours though , a 15W amp used at 5 to 7W is still quite loud.

Bedroom level might mean from 0.1W to 0.5W ans at that volume "everything" is thin buzzy, not their fault but our ears.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Bedroom level might mean from 0.1W to 0.5W ans at that volume "everything" is thin buzzy, not their fault but our ears.

Gets a like, especially for ^^^ that right there.

[ArturoQ]

Thanks Enzo, I do believe I've noticed that over time. But for instance, listening to a YT video on the bassman at tv volume produced a very pleasant sound to my ears. Don't know where to start, used to think my Blues Jr. was too loud. Understand more watts produce more clean. Possibly hopeless

[ArturoQ]

Hello JM Fahey,
Very interesting! I don't comprehend a lot of that, but I can investigate it. As I just mentiioned, I've heard a YT video of a 57 Bassman doing that J. Hendrix stuff and it didn't sound like it was played loud. At the TV's volume it was acceptable and sounded IMHO, very good. I watched another comparing bassman and tweed blues jr. (seemingly stock) and the BJr plsying A/B an it sounded amazingly similar. But the 1X12 speaker and the boxiness again IMHO lost it.
Maybe if I get exceptionally ambitious.
Thanks

[ArturoQ]

Howdy,
Forget the bedroom volume portion of my dream amp. It appears that I will have to do with TV nightime football viewing volumes (:-)!

[Leo_Gnardo]

Understand more watts produce more clean.

That's a for sure fact. ^^^

Some hobbyists have made micro size amps using 12AU7 as a power amp (!). Haven't heard any in person, BUT I'll wager one might sound good through a 12 inch speaker. Dinky speakers tend to sound twee, small wonder. I'm sure it would take some tinkering in gain & EQ stages to dial in a pleasing tone with that power amp setup.

FWIW there have been a number of tiny plastic solid state amps, hand size more or less. Back in late 70's the "Tweedy Bird" that plugged straight into guitar jack. Didn't fit recessed jacks, don't plug into a Strat for instance. Since then various battery powered model-train scale Marshall, Vox, Fender Twin "toy" amps. Surprise, don't sound awful, but def. limited by their 2 inch speakers. Once again, through a proper guitar speaker would probably work a lot better.

[J M Fahey]

I also wondered about Recordings being played at way lower than original volume yet sounding good, there may be many possible explanations:
The original amp IS being played LOUD and that does wonderful things to Guitar sound, including compression.

Those amps are being played between 5 and 7 Volume setting and there they start sounding good: full, elastic,creamy, etc. .
"Officially" still "clean" but scopes tell otherwise.

You will not have that experience with a Bassman turned to 1 or 0.5, whatever´s needed for bedroom level.
A "microamp" such as mentioned above (0.5W or 1W) WILL reach compression levels, which typically start at about half power (since transients already trigger it).

Practical example: I do not like (ok: I hate) triodes as power Tubes (do you hear that 12A*7?) , all Guitar amps use Pentodes.

Yet another Argentine Rock and Culture example follows (the Embassy should pay me for doing their job):

No "famous brand" amps available at the onset of Argentine Rock, (late 60´s) so an early secret weapon was modding a Geloso Tape Recorder (they were ubiquitous and locally made, since Engineer Geloso was Argentine born) which had a 12AX7 + 6AQ5 pre/power amp inside.

Listen for yourself, there´s a thriving niche Industry in modding them for Guitar use:

Actual Guitar playing starts at 3:00

[J M Fahey]

More Geloso tape recorder

here driven full blast into distortion, the idea in your case would be to make/use a **small** Tube amp, pentode output, well below full clipping, which is also shown here.
At 3:46, a well known Argentine Rock early hit: Avenida Rivadavia.

All played through the internal 3" x 5" tape recorder speaker!!!!!

EDIT: fwiw here´s the schematic of the unmodifid beast:

[J M Fahey]

No wonder about the huge gain and distortion available (way back then! And in a "clean" home use tape recorder!): 3 cascaded 12AX7 stages driving poor 6AQ5 grid (Champ had only 2): preamp was meant for WEAK voice microphone output, which to boot was designed not for loud singers as in a regular PA but to pick up faint faraway voices in a classroom, bird songs, etc.

[ArturoQ]

Good day Leo_Gnardo,
Just noticed the underscore... Interesting ideas. How about the blues jr pushing a 4X10 cabinet with appropriate wattage speakers and an 8 ohm configuration? I revisited that video on comparing a tweed bassman and a tweed blues jr. The blues jr sounded good but IMHO boxey and not as rich in frequencies. Again I really don't know about how to describe the stuff, but I do know what I like. As to small amps, I have a Vox Lil Night Train with a Jet city 1X12. That is very IMHO chimey. Maybe that would be a better experiment??
BTW Your tag line speaks volumes

[ArturoQ]

Neat sounds out of a tape recorder, well done I think! Rock on!

[Leo_Gnardo]

Good day Leo_Gnardo,
Just noticed the underscore... Interesting ideas. How about the blues jr pushing a 4X10 cabinet with appropriate wattage speakers and an 8 ohm configuration? I revisited that video on comparing a tweed bassman and a tweed blues jr. The blues jr sounded good but IMHO boxey and not as rich in frequencies. Again I really don't know about how to describe the stuff, but I do know what I like. As to small amps, I have a Vox Lil Night Train with a Jet city 1X12. That is very IMHO chimey. Maybe that would be a better experiment??
BTW Your tag line speaks volumes

Your Blues Jr through 4x10 I'm sure would sound a treat, so would 4 x 12 with even more bass. Heck, anything to get a tone. Sort of takes up a lot of room though for a "bedroom amp." If you have all that space, fine. Can't guarantee a 15 (actually @ 12W clean) watt amp would not bother the neighbors.

FWIW many years ago a fellow showed up with a little Masco PA amp. Single 6L6 output tube. Very champ like, only 5W or so, but it did have a lot more oomph than a Fender champ because the output transformer handled low frequencies better. I cascaded two stages of preamp before signal went to tone control, lots of overdrive available depending on how you set knobs. 4 or 8 ohm output - tried any number of speakers & sounded good with all. Particularly striking with my 4x12 V4 cab loaded with Altec 417's - Cadillac quality speakers for sure. People couldn't believe such a great tone was coming out of that pokey little amp, but at full scream still could hold a conversation without shouting. Owner dubbed it "The Green Monster" and loves it to this day.

Besides tiny power amps with 12AU7 might I recommend a champ-like build using a very kool miniature tube 6AQ5. 7 pin socket, just a little thing, might get 3W clean or so single ended. Neighbors would have to have eagle ears to complain about any racket you might make with that. Theoretically they're supposed to be a miniaturized 6V6. FWIW I always like the tone of old amps that employ those tubes. Still a lot left NOS, not expensive. Mil version I think is 6005. Nobody's making any copies in the modern day. But they should.

https://www.tubedepot.com/t/tubes/po...6005-6669-el90

^^^ One source that came up fast. Can't speak for the other equivalents nor for the ultra expensive options. I'm sure they can be found elsewhere cheaper.

Just changed tag line a couple days ago. I've said that line so many times plus added it to commentary all over the place. Thanks for your review!

[ArturoQ]

I think I am looking to far ahead. Although I found a YT video series on builing amps. I think I will wait awhile and get the fender working.
Thanks for puting more ideas in my head.