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Vacuum Rectifiers and SS Diode Emulators

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  • Vacuum Rectifiers and SS Diode Emulators

    The differences in vacuum rectifiers and SS diodes have been worked over quite a bit, but I think I ran onto something new about them. The I-V curve of a vacuum rectifier tube is responsible for the voltage drop and sag in tube rectified power supplies. SS diodes have radically different I-V characteristics, so they produce a higher DC and much smaller sag than vacuum rectifiers.
    It's possible to make SS diodes behave more like vacuum rectifiers by inserting an appropriately sized power resistor after the SS diodes to insert voltage drop and sag. This had been done many times, including in the Weber Copper Cap rectifiers, which many people find acceptable.
    It occurred to me to look at the size and shape of the ripple voltage of model supplies in my simulator. I found a well thought of model for a 5U4 rectifier, and compared this to three other rectifiers; a 1N4007, a 1N4007 plus dropping./sag resistor, and a diode-zener-resistor network curve-matched to the 5U4 I-V curve. The results ticked all the boxes, in that the bare SS diode was highest DC, little sag; the diode plus resistor was lower DC, more sag; the 5U4 was as expected; and the curve-matched network came remarkably close to the 5U4. The ripple voltages were significantly different.
    The single diode had sharp points on the peaks of the ripple voltage. The diode plus resistor rounded the points a little; and the curve-matched network was so close to the waveform of the 5U4 that it was hard to see the differences.
    I ran a spectrum analyzer modeller on the ripples. The spectrum peaks were quite different. The single diode had the expected big 120Hz and 240Hz, and a very long train of harmonics that did not reduce quickly and extended to high frequencies. The diode plus resistor reduced the upper harmonics very noticeably. I was quite happy to see that the curve-matched network and 5U4 model produced almost exactly the same spectrum for ripple. It was hard to squint the differences.
    This was actually a "well, duuuh!" moment. Of course sharp pointy waveforms have lots of harmonics. But seeing a diode-zener-resistor net produce less harmonics with no filtering caps or inductors was rewarding. And I think the spectra explain some of the preference for vacuum rectifiers. Beyond sag, it's possible for higher line harmonics to get into the amplifying circuit if the filtering network isn't well done. Higher line harmonics could well introduce a brittleness to the sound. Some of it is certainly going to get into the OT CT, and possibly into the PI supply and screens. Yes, those are filtered, but for people who claim to hear artifacts below the measurement threshold of modern instruments it might be possible...
    In any case, I think that there's enough there to make a rectifier curve matching network a good place to dig.

    Nota Bene: No, this does not match the warm up lag. There are ways to do that. but I-V matching doesn't simulate warm-up.
    Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

    Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

  • #2
    Thanks for the post R.G.

    I have been looking at this topic recently, not for guitar amps, but for tube testers. Specifically, this is for the Type 83 rectifier (Mercury filled version). These tubes are getting hard to find so solid state replacements might be the only alternative should the 83 fail. I am no expert on this subject, but trying to learn.

    There are two testers that use the Type 83 rectifier - Hickok and B&K. Personally, I have a B&K 707. It had some issues and needed someone who knew these testers inside and out to fix it. So I sent it to Tube Sound in PA. When the unit was returned to me, I noticed the Type 83 tube was removed and in its place were IN4007 dioides and a 10 ohm series resistor. The unit works just fine. I have seen some designs that add an inline fuse between the 10 ohm resistors and the diodes.

    The Antique Radios radio site has many many posts on this also. But recently, I found something on a Facebook group called "Rock Power & Light." There is a post that shows a common SS Rectifier for the Hickok. There is also a table that shows in circuit measurements. See below.

    And here is yet one more thread on the topic - https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=336070

    I have asked if there would be a difference in the SS Rectifier for the Hickok vs B&K. I don't have the answer yet. I would think there must be since the testers have a different design.

    But for now, I bring this info for your consideration.


    Click image for larger version

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    It's not just an amp, it's an adventure!

    Comment


    • #3
      It occurred to me to look at the size and shape of the ripple voltage of model supplies in my simulator. I found a well thought of model for a 5U4 rectifier, and compared this to three other rectifiers; a 1N4007, a 1N4007 plus dropping./sag resistor, and a diode-zener-resistor network curve-matched to the 5U4 I-V curve. The results ticked all the boxes, in that the bare SS diode was highest DC, little sag; the diode plus resistor was lower DC, more sag; the 5U4 was as expected; and the curve-matched network came remarkably close to the 5U4. The ripple voltages were significantly different.
      Interesting.
      What component values did you use?
      What was the effective winding resistance?
      Last edited by Helmholtz; 02-05-2025, 04:42 PM.
      - Own Opinions Only -

      Comment


      • #4
        In the thread linked below I posted pictures of the actual V-I characteristics of some tube rectifiers.

        https://music-electronics-forum.com/...ube-sag-thread

        Edit: Man, that was almost 10 years ago !!!!
        Last edited by loudthud; 02-06-2025, 03:14 AM.
        WARNING! Musical Instrument amplifiers contain lethal voltages and can retain them even when unplugged. Refer service to qualified personnel.
        REMEMBER: Everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school !

        Comment


        • #5
          @Tom: I don't know much about the type 83, but I think I could fake it given where I've gotten. That said, I don't think it would matter a whole lot in a tube tester. Got schematics of the testers?

          @Helmholtz: I didn't go into huge detail on the transformer itself, given how crudely I was investigating. I can do that, and will. The component values will need tweaking as the model gets better. I'll work out a usable version, as soon as ...
          Edit: Do you have a good set of transformer resistances for reference? I can measure only a couple of the ones I have, and that's hardly what I'd call representative. Can you help with some more numbers?

          @loudthud: Dang! That's what I needed! Thank you!!

          (R.G. runs back to the simulator...)
          Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

          Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

          Comment


          • #6
            "That said, I don't think it would matter a whole lot in a tube tester." Yes, it does. More so in the 5y3 so you need series resistance added otherwise you will not be able to line adjust the meter "0" correctly.
            The 83 mercury vapor tube was selected because of the "low voltage drop of only 15V which is mostly constant and not impacted by current draw." Click image for larger version

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            • #7
              Edit: Do you have a good set of transformer resistances for reference? I can measure only a couple of the ones I have, and that's hardly what I'd call representative. Can you help with some more numbers?
              The minimum transformer resistance per leg depends on the tube rectifier type (and current) and is found from the datasheet.
              Typical values are between 70R and 250R.
              Means that the winding resistance might be similar or larger than the equivalent rectifier resistance (e.g. with a GZ34).


              Last edited by Helmholtz; 02-05-2025, 08:20 PM.
              - Own Opinions Only -

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              • #8
                Well, this just displays my lack of knowledge on both mercury rectifiers and tube testers.

                I'll have to go learn about MVRs.

                Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

                Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post
                  The minimum transformer resistance per leg depends on the tube rectifier type (and current) and can be found from the datasheet.
                  Typical values are between 70R and 250R.
                  Means that the winding resistance might be similar or larger than the effective rectifier resistance (e.g. with a GZ34).
                  It does.

                  ... R.G. runs for his circuit simulator...

                  Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

                  Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It would be interesting to know if anyone has observed a measurable difference when upgrading from 1N4007 rectifier diodes to UF4007s.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Studying SS diode switching noise (reverse recovery effects) will require to include transformer parasitics (leakage inductance and winding capacitance).
                      Example values (per leg): Ls = 120mH, Cp = 750pF (measured on a JTM45 RI PT).
                      - Own Opinions Only -

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by R.G. View Post
                        @Tom: I don't know much about the type 83, but I think I could fake it given where I've gotten. That said, I don't think it would matter a whole lot in a tube tester. Got schematics of the testers?
                        Don't spend too much time on this. Let's prioritize discussion on rectifiers for amps. I was just tossing in an fyi.

                        Here is a schematic for the B&K 707.


                        b&k_700_manual.pdf

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                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by TomCarlos; 02-06-2025, 12:34 AM.
                        It's not just an amp, it's an adventure!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by loudthud View Post
                          In the thread linked below I posted pictures of the actual V-I characteristics of some tube rectifiers.

                          https://music-electronics-forum.com/...ube-sag-thread
                          In that thread, Pedro linked to another thread where the copper cap was discussed in depth, some of it by R.G.
                          The link was dead, but it can be found here: https://music-electronics-forum.com/...per-cap-module
                          Originally posted by Enzo
                          I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tom Phillips View Post
                            It would be interesting to know if anyone has observed a measurable difference when upgrading from 1N4007 rectifier diodes to UF4007s.
                            It would. I would guess that the difference there would be a lower residual hum, as the in the two would be in the UF series not having the abrupt turn off for the ordinary ones. Fast, soft turn off SS diodes seem to just fix the issues of turnoff ringing.
                            Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

                            Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post
                              Studying SS diode switching noise (reverse recovery effects) will require to include transformer parasitics (leakage inductance and winding capacitance).
                              Example values (per leg): Ls = 120mH, Cp = 750pF (measured on a JTM45 RI PT).
                              One source suggested that it was more an RF resonance in the wires to and from the diodes themselves.

                              This is all quite a target rich environment.
                              Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

                              Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

                              Comment

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