Mesa Boogie design complaints

[rabies]

Hello,

I'm rabies from the boogie board. I've been using Marshall and Mesa amps mostly for the past few years.

I've noticed that most manufacturers, like Marshall, Rivera, Diezel, bogner, laney, use HT fuses for the power tubes. Mesa does not.

Also, Mesa does not offer adjustable bias option for their amps.

You'd think for an amp company with so many patents, they wouldn't be this far behind in the basic design considerations of tube amp technology.

I think that their robotube testing technology is b.s. as I had three fuses and/or power tubes blow on me in 2 weeks when I bought a brand new Deuce II from them about a year ago (and then finally returned for refund). I called Mesa service and they said it's the tubes. 3 times in a row in 2 weeks? "sometimes we get bad batches". do you really use that robotube b.s.? you don't even get a certificate of QC in the Mesa tubes for the robotube b.s. total b.s. and they charge you more for nothing.

the cascading gain structure effectively disallows users from cranking preamp gain and maxing power tube output as it "voids the warranty". you'd think you should be able to fully crank the master volume for any tube amp for hours with no problems other than excessive wear on the power tubes.

the mark V is due out in a couple weeks. supposed to be totally badass. most likely w/o HT fuse, w/o adj bias, and comes stock with b.s. QC'd tubes.

any comments?

[rabies]

or maybe this is the reason:

mesa makes money selling their re-branded tubes. if the bias is non-adjustable (using a resistor rather than pot for setting the fixed bias), then you can effectively force their customer to purchase your tubes only.

but they do state that GT 4-7 are fine as well, so that argument may not hold any weight...

bottom line is mesa amps are very cold biased. this can be confirmed by stokes. I measure the outer sockets w/ EL34 tubes on my ex-mark iv to be 8ma!

most amps recommend bias for EL34 to be around 35ma or higher w/o hot biasing them, don't they?? target is: 70% MPD. so when the output tubes are so cold-biased like the mark iv, you won't get power tube distortion...

[mac1amps]

In all due respect to Mesa-Boogie, whereas they've always made decent amps (even though I, personally prefer the Non-master volume sound, which isn't what they're known for), I've always been of the opinion that their purpose behind not having bias adjustment facilities on their amps is so that they can INSIST that you use the tubes that they market with their name on them, which have been pre-tested to operate "properly" with the pre-determined bias voltage that they've designed into the amp. As an amp tech [of 35-years] I've installed bias adjustment facilities in a number of Mesa's, primarily for the purpose of having the option to use other makes of power tubes, and still biasing them correctly. Otherwise it's kind of "hit-or-miss" with respect to biasing if you choose to use [power] tubes that don't have the Mesa Name on them. A bit of a scam IMO.

[Merlinb]

I agree Rabies, they've devised a clever way to force people to use their rebranded valves, and no others.
And their effects loops are dull as dishwater too.
And their attitude to patents and generally sueing everyone is pretty wallet-squeezingly disgusting too (I wonder if Mr. R. Smith ever had a partner called Jacob Marley?)

[hamfist]

For a person who likes to have their amps set up perfectly and who can bias their own amps, then the Mesa philosophy on biasing seems ridiculous.

However, I can also see the merit of their system for those who would never bias an amp....and would probably not even take an amp to a tech even if they did change power tubes.

Personally I'll convert all non-adjusteable fixed bias amps into adjustable fixed bias ... it just makes sense for those who care !

[Merlinb]

However, I can also see the merit of their system for those who would never bias an amp....and would probably not even take an amp to a tech even if they did change power tubes.

Considering how much unecessary junk is already in their amps, and how hot they are on "advanced circuits" (yeah right...) I'm surprised they don't simply include automatic bias servos. Problem solved!

[defaced]

Every car manufacture has a design philosophy, as does every amp maker. Just because Mesa doesn't do it like everyone else, doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, it's just their design philosophy.

I've owned a Mesa amp, and I certainly didn't use Mesa tubes in it. In fact, I ran KT-88s mixed wtih 6L6s, and aside from the KT-88s being a little hot, it worked just fine. Are their relabeled tubes a scam, sure, I think so. Does it trap ignorant players, I bet it does. Who's fault is that, in my opinion it's the players for not being savvy about their equipment and it's nuisances to keep from getting hosed.

As for the HT fuse, sure it makes since to have one, but so do many other safety features. Is it wrong not to have one, I don't know. But installing one can't be that hard if you really want it.

so when the output tubes are so cold-biased like the mark iv, you won't get power tube distortion...

That was likely the intent. Different player require different kinds of amps. I'm a metal player, and the last thing I want is power tube distortion. And a Mark IV is a damn good metal amp.

[rabies]

the whole "you don't have to bias your amp when you swap power tubes is a courtesy to the player" I guess is true, but is it a courtesy when the bias is reading 8ma on my bias rite for the outer sox of my ex-mark iv with el34's? and how often do ppl swap power tubes on avg? it's pretty easy to set bias yourself w/ a bias rite.

mesa hollywood (I live near LA) would not even discuss the color scheme for their power tubes. they said the colors don't indicate current draw or bias and don't map to the GT 1-10 scale. well if that's true, then why do they say you can use GT 4-7?

it's not true that you must use their power tubes to avoid voiding the warranty. GT 4-7 are official alternatives to the mesa power tubes.

the policy is you can use whatever power tubes you want but if there is damage to the amp which traces to your power tubes, then the warranty shall be void.

[Enzo]

It doesn't force anything. You are perfectly welcome to use other tubes in there. Every brand tells you to use only their tubes. That doesn;t make it a techinical requirement, only a marketing ploy. They do it - make them not adjustable and cold - for the same reason Peavey does it - it allows them to put an amp on the market that no one will crank to the sky then bitch when their output transformer melts.

It doesn;t matter whether they rebrand other tubes (no secret that they and others do that) or build a factory and make their own, they ARE in the business of selling tubes after all.

[rabies]

It doesn't force anything. You are perfectly welcome to use other tubes in there.

call Mesa hollywood and ask them. they'll say you can use any tube you want, but if there's damage to the amp (e.g. OT) as a direct result of your power tube(s) failing, your warranty is void.

so basically it does to a certain extent force "something" (or at least provide a very strong recommendation with possible consequences) if you have a mesa with a valid warranty...

[tubeswell]

The tubes that Mesa re-brands are from any one of the same 3 or 4 factories in the world that still make tubes, that everyone else gets their tubes from. Insisting on buying their own re-branded tubes is shite. A EL34 is an EL34. The question is; if you design an amp so badly that it is fussy about differences in the same type of tubes, are you are going to get people buying more amps? Hmmmm...

[rabies]

The tubes that Mesa re-brands are from any one of the same 3 or 4 factories in the world that still make tubes, that everyone else gets their tubes from. Insisting on buying their own re-branded tubes is shite. A EL34 is an EL34. The question is; if you design an amp so badly that it is fussy about differences in the same type of tubes, are you are going to get people buying more amps? Hmmmm...

they're using JJ now. i like how you can pretty much use any combination of any power tubes you want with the diezel amps. wide sweep bias range.

[Merlinb]

It doesn't force anything. You are perfectly welcome to use other tubes in there.

You're right, 'force' is the wrong word. 'Encourage' is perhaps better. They know full well that the operating condiitons are so extreme in so many of their amps that anything but their 'specially tested' rebrands are probably going to suffer an early death.

[Enzo]

Actually I feel the opposite. The amps are biased cold enough that most tubes will work.

The only thing "special" about the Mesa tubes is that they have been grades in similar fashion to Groove. And that is more about how easy they will be to break up, moreso than current concerns.

[stokes]

Like Enzo says,Mesa amps are so cold,most power tubes will not fry,particularly with those EL34's in the MKIV,have yet to see one any hotter than 15ma's and as low as 4ma's.But in my MKIIC+ and SOB,and a couple of others I have worked on, I have seen some NOS 6L6's draw close to 70% MPD,so I would still recommend checking the bias of any power tube you try,but that goes for any amp.Rabies,you know my theories on Mesa's marketing scheme from the Boogie Board,they are in the business of selling tubes as well as amps,so of course it works best for them.A lot of players dont want to be bothered thinking about bias so for them,it works too.Welcome to the board,rabies,I think you'll like it here,a lot of knowledgeable guys willing to help,and never a shortage of info.