Merits of 'dual platform' (2x-6v6 + 2x-el84) amps?

[Mango Moon]

O.K., amateur player here, but here's my general (amateurish) question for everyone, and I hope that it will draw some serious discussion from a variety of readers including current owners of such 'dual-platform' amps . . .

Over the past few years, in an effort to provide increased versatility and tonal variety to the low-wattage market, boutique amp manufacturers have been slowly producing (for lack of a better word) 'dual-platform' amps with both 6V6 and EL84 power sections (e.g., the Divided by 13 JRT-9/15, the Reinhardt Sultan, and others), and for the most part, these all seem to get pretty decent reviews. But in the final analysis (i.e., if you're not a product salesman with something to gain), is there really any "practical" or real-world advantage to such an arrangement? In other words, is a dual-platform configuration more "gimmick" or 'experimentation' than substance [i.e., is a guy better off sticking to one or the other (6V6 or EL84) platform]?

Like many others out there, I am a home-studio/small venue based player with a keen desire to obtain nice, clean (single-coil/Voxey) tone, but also, where possible, a warm, modestly overdriven (Les Paul/HB/Marshall) tone from the same amp, without excessive power or volume. An ambitious wish like this prompts one to look very hard at the 'dual-platform' offerings out there, but detailed research on the subject tends to lead to the following conclusions and/or questions:

1) That although 6V6 and EL84 tubes differ somewhat in design and tonal capabilities (the latter being mid-heavy and typically breaking-up at lesser plate voltages), their respective tones, with all other things being equal, stand to be quite similar unless the circuitry of the amp itself is substantially different on both sides. But are they?

2) Given the somewhat higher price of these units and the increasingly tight economy these days, are these types of amps different (and/or superior) enough to warrant a 'blind' purchase? Are they considered by most to be of 'proven' design? In other words, if they're not available to the buyer locally to road test or if sound clips for a given model are not yet available, are these types of amps different enough and street-tested enough in terms of construction and tone (typically speaking) to warrant their purchase? Or is a guy better off (i.e., less at risk) by simply buying two distinct amps (one clean, one dirty)?

Thanks ahead of time to all who contribute here!

[6267]

Do you mean an amp with two entirely separate power outputs, requiring a switch to be flipped or a stereo cab?
Or do you mean amps that use two types of output tubes simultaneously on one output?

My experience with 6v6/EL84 is that they can sound very similar, or very different depending on the circuit. They both put out similar amounts of power, although you can push the design more with a 6v6 power wise. If both tubes are in the same output circuit, you're likely to get a fairly rich spectrum in overdrive, with the EL84s likely overdriving first, followed by the 6v6s. That depends a lot on the circuit though.

With independent circuits, I don't really see the point. They're both great musical tubes, with somewhat different characteristics but both can generate good blues, rock or whatever tones. If you're really picky about tones, or play a lot of different styles, it could be cool to have say a 6v6 class A amp on the same chassis as an EL84 AB amp, or vice versa. An amp with switchable 6L6 or EL84 output would be *GREAT* for home practice & small clubs in one package.

Sometimes the simpler the amp, the better the sound. Depends on what you're playing though.

I wouldn't blind buy any tube amp, personally. Definitely try the amp out and see if it gets you to the sound, don't buy based on "features", but on sound.

[mooreamps]

An amp with switchable 6L6 or EL84 output would be *GREAT* for home practice & small clubs in one package.

The first 5 watt amp I built was a class A amp that mixed the EL84 and a 6V6. It was quickly reverse engineered and posted on another forum. But the 18 watt amps that I build now for a Blues amp, I use a 6L6 and EL34 that is blendable with 2 master volumes. So, just about anyone should be able to cobble one up ; of course less using my own layout of my preamp.

-g

[Richard]

There will be subtle differences in the tone. The ability to switch between the two power sections seems like it would be most useful to a studio-type situation where you can fine tune the tone. I generally tend to gravitate to a certain setup so I probably would wind up spending all my time in one mode but when tastes change more options are nice. In other words, in a live situation, I probably wouldn't be switching modes but if I'm recording a song and zeroing in on a tone the extra flexibility would be helpful.

[Steve Conner]

To nail those two tones, all you need is two guitars, a Strat and a Les Paul. And a good tube amp that can be set to either reproduce the guitar clean, or dirt it up somewhat. I don't see any point in messing around with switchable output stages and so on.

I've yet to see an amp that can make a Strat sound like a LP or vice versa.

[Mango Moon]

As stated at the outset, my personal environment is a relaxed, low-volume, home studio, recording application (i.e., I'm not out gigging or performing nightly), and consequently, a myriad of adjustments or fine-tuning to get the desired tone is of no real concern to me. I've got nothing but time.

Secondly, the difference(s) between single-coil's and HB's is understood; I have Strats, Telly's, Anderson's, PRS's, Jaguars, Rics and Les Paul's available to me here; its simply not an 'instrumental' issue. Nor can it be done (tonally) with one, single, amplifier. If that were the case, I submit that there wouldn't be as many brands of amps out there as there are shampoos! You're simply never going to get an SLO-100 out of a 100w Fender Twin or a Marshall-18 out of a 22w Deluxe Reverb, and so on.

But ask yourself this . . . wouldn't it be nice to have some approximation of all four (power- and tone-wise) in the same head, even if they weren't identical?

[6267]

There may be an advantage in a recording environment, if the output stages are not set up that identically. Still, I might rather have two separate amps in that environment, since I can set each one where I want them and just hit the A/B box. The tubes lives would be longer, since if you just wanted to use the EL84 amp, you don't have to turn on the 6v6 one.

That being said, it would be useful if you wanted to just have some "dialed in" tone from one amp...I expect the bigger differences wouldn't be the tube types but the configuration of each output stage and preamp. Each could be voiced differently, or connected to different loads, which would be a neat thing in a studio, especially if you can blend between them.

[mac1amps]

In my experience, the more you try to make one amp sound like various different ones, the more you end up compromising. It's really alot like the people who TRY to make one guitar that can sound like a Fender AND a Gibson............(NOT! As anyone who's been "around the block" at all knows, it's much more than just single coil vs. humbucker). Especially in a studio setting, you'll never really "nail" the sounds you want unless you use a Fender [amp] for a Fender sound, a Vox for a Vox sound, a Marshall for a Marshall sound, etc., etc. Keep in mind that, other than the power tubes you use, the different spec. O.T.'s of each amp are a significant factor in each amp's overall "character" sound (not to mention the different preamp/driver networks of each model as well)

[Mango Moon]

Mac1:

Yup, point taken! Overall circuitry including OTs are certainly a critical or key consideration.

Also, just to clarify, my earlier observation about single coils vs. HB was not intended to imply anything simplistic, but rather, that tone started (not stopped) there. Like a chainsaw, the power or performance of the motor means nothing with a dull chain.

Basically, I've got the Fender thing nailed (e.g., Deluxe Reverb, Princeton, Vibrolux, etc.), but what I lack the most is a tight, warm, bluesy overdrive (not the shrill, spikey, trebley metal type); something akin to Mark Knopfler (Brothers in Arms) or Billy Gibbons (My Heads in Mississippi). And if I can achieve that tone or something close (at lesser volumes) with something that also (or secondarily) offers the ultra-chimey AC-30 (EL84) tone for added cleans, that monster would indeed be my "Holy Grail".

Does it exist? "Can" it exist? Don't know! And that's precisely the purpose for this journey.

[mooreamps]

Mac1:


And if I can achieve that tone or something close (at lesser volumes) with something that also (or secondarily) offers the ultra-chimey AC-30 (EL84) tone for added cleans, that monster would indeed be my "Holy Grail".

Does it exist? "Can" it exist? Don't know! And that's precisely the purpose for this journey.

Maybe it could be nothing more than an AC-30 with a pair of 6V6 aside with a pair of EL84's. Although if I were to do it, I'd probably run the 6V6 in push/pull class A and leave the el84's in class A/B. I'm sure you could find someone to do this mod for you.

Oh ya, don't forget to balance the stage gain of the EL84's to match the 6V6's.....

-g