Maybe this guy is onto something !

[daz]

If you saw the thread i started a while ago i was saying how my 6v6 amp sounds so much more alive than my el34 amp, and the circuits from the input to the PI are identical and i have pretty much tried everything imaginable to make the el34 amp sound the same. Look at that thread is you want the details.

Anyways, i'm looking thru the metroamp forum and i see a guy stating that he found solid core wire used in the preamp sounds much better than stranded. Sounds cray, i know. But heres what made my jaw drop.....the 6v6 amp of mine is done with all solid core and the el34 amp is all stranded ! I think i may have to ditch the stranded i bought for the new build i am just starting and get some solid. Read his thread below and try and keep an open mind. I'm telling you, the 2 amps i have are nite and day and the one with solid core is so much more intense and organic while the stranded amp sounds like it has the proverbial blanket over the speaker. I don't want to start some sort of heated discussion here, but i really want to hear what you all think because i have literally thru the process of elimination come to a point where theres nothing left between the two amps that could account for the huge difference except wacky mojo stuff like this. But i wonder just how wacky it is or isn't. Has anyone built two identical circuits with each type of wire and noticed anything? I'lll report back the day i fire the new one up if i use solid. I'm going to go post in the guy's thread about my experience and see what they say there.

MetroAmp.com Forum • View topic - Solid vs. Stranded... Why only Marshall?

[imaradiostar]

The emperor's new wire...uhoh.

I think that it's going to be a stretch to prove that one or the other is better. At the end of the day you should build with the one that makes you happy.

I work in a lab that has a lot of mil spec silver plated stranded PTFE wire. For me it's a simple choice- if I can get that stuff cheap from work or Apex Jr, I use it. If not...then it's whatever I can get from mcmaster.com or turretboards.com or triodeelectronics.com- you get the drift. I have a number of projects with signal wire that's been salvaged from old tube hardware and filament wires made from computer power supply leftovers. More than anything it just helps me to keep the colors consistent throughout an amp to help troubleshooting. I try to follow the old codes- blue plates, yellow cathodes, green grids, etc.

I've rebuilt amps with different wire and not noticed a difference. If you did notice a difference in one, how do you eliminate wire length and placement as the variable?

I'm sure a Fender build would sound better with cloth wire form triode electronics- and it's easy to work with. Marshalls probably sound better with irradiated PVC wire from McMaster.com. I'm sure my designs made with milspec silver plated stranded wire must sound like vintage Navy hardware.

Knowing that silver is about the best conductor we've got I'd dial up Steve at apex jr and order some of his milspec PTFE wire- the strands are silver plated and it's easy to work with, especially with an automatic stripping tool. Ease of use and ability to make it stay in one place is probably more important than how it looks or stranded versus solid.

jamie

[Wilder Amplification]

If you saw the thread i started a while ago i was saying how my 6v6 amp sounds so much more alive than my el34 amp, and the circuits from the input to the PI are identical and i have pretty much tried everything imaginable to make the el34 amp sound the same. Look at that thread is you want the details.

Anyways, i'm looking thru the metroamp forum and i see a guy stating that he found solid core wire used in the preamp sounds much better than stranded. Sounds cray, i know. But heres what made my jaw drop.....the 6v6 amp of mine is done with all solid core and the el34 amp is all stranded ! I think i may have to ditch the stranded i bought for the new build i am just starting and get some solid. Read his thread below and try and keep an open mind. I'm telling you, the 2 amps i have are nite and day and the one with solid core is so much more intense and organic while the stranded amp sounds like it has the proverbial blanket over the speaker. I don't want to start some sort of heated discussion here, but i really want to hear what you all think because i have literally thru the process of elimination come to a point where theres nothing left between the two amps that could account for the huge difference except wacky mojo stuff like this. But i wonder just how wacky it is or isn't. Has anyone built two identical circuits with each type of wire and noticed anything? I'lll report back the day i fire the new one up if i use solid. I'm going to go post in the guy's thread about my experience and see what they say there.

MetroAmp.com Forum • View topic - Solid vs. Stranded... Why only Marshall?

Um...you have one amp with a 6V6 and the other with an EL34.

A 6V6 sounds VASTLY different than an EL34. EL34s have quite a strong midrange compared to that of a 6V6 or any beam power tetrode when cranked...this alone could explain the "more lively" difference.

Are you running the same output transformer with the same plate load in both amps? Are both amps identical with identical voltages, trannys, everything? And do you run them through the same speaker? Have you eliminated every possible variable there is to eliminate? Components of the same type/rating/tolerance? Are you listening to them in the same listening environment?

I'm sorry but I just cannot fathom wire type having any sort of profound effect on what we hear with these things. I too have used all different types of wire depending on what was available at the time. 12 years ago when I was still new to this trade I completely rewired a heavily modded Fender Pro Reverb back to stock using wire I ripped out of a plain old ordinary AC line cord and it sounded every bit as good as any other old Fender blackface you'll find out there. In my book...wire type = hype.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Maybe this guy is onto something !

MetroAmp.com Forum • View topic - Solid vs. Stranded... Why only Marshall?

I think he is definitely "on" something not onto something.

[txstrat]

I think he is definitely "on" something not onto something.

[Mike Doolin]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second here. One possible cause of a tonal difference in wire type is microphonics. Crack open any bf Fender chassis and tap on the wires and components with the eraser end of a pencil, and you'll hear varying degrees of clicks and pops depending on where you are in the circuit. These amps are very acoustically live, and especially with the combo amps, the vibrations from the speaker are vibrating these microphonic components, creating resonances through feedback. Stranded wire is more flexible and more acoustically damped than solid wire, so the latter is more likely to be microphonic and possibly cause resonant peaks.

Just sayin'.

[Steve Conner]

Noooo, don't do it! You'll go crazy.

The two amps have different power tubes, different OT load impedances and run off different voltages, that's explanation enough.

I've got an amp here that can run either EL34s or 6V6s, I would record some sound clips and we could play spot the difference, except I only have one pair of 6V6s and I think they're some off brand that the internet cork sniffers don't like.

That is an interesting point about microphonics, though.

[Dave H]

You've posted this three days early

Dave H.

[daz]

Steve....i HAVE run 6v6 in the big amp, many times in fact. I believe it was you guys here that told me i could do this when i first built this amp as long as i ran the 4 ohm tap with my 8 ohm speaker. And yes, it sounds different but the sound character as i described stays exactly the same, as it did with 4 different OT's, one that is now in the 6v6 amp. It also displays the same thing when the preamp is routed in to another amps power section, which i did with a classic 30, a very dull sounding amp compared to even my big amp. I don't know how to write it off as the power section when it does that. In short, i'm pretty sure that what i'm hearing is not the different amp's power sections.

I know i can't post things like this here w/o being flogged after that cap thread especially. But understand something....i didn't say this is true. I only said it was an eye opener if true because the wire type is pretty much the only thing left to question, as i have tried everything else imaginable and the big amp never sways in this regard. If anyone can explain that with a different reason i'd be happy to try whatever it might be, but in my other thread no one was able to explain it being due to something I haven't already eliminated as a possibility, while this guy's wire theory has yet to be tried. However, today i am going to wire the big amp's pre at least with solid, so i will know the truth either way. And i will post when i do. I hope he's right. If not i will be at a total loss as to why my amps sound so different.

[Steve Conner]

Well, if it's not any of that other stuff, then I have no idea what it is! Maybe it is some subtle thing to do with lead dress, or maybe it's component tolerances (did you check the actual resistances of all the pots?) but I'm out of ideas now

[daz]

Exactly Steve! Thats what i'm saying. I gave up because i have tried everything i could thru process of elimination. Other will laugh that i'm even considering trying this, but it's foolish not to consider all possibilities. If i try this then i WILL know the answer while those who laugh at this idea will only suspect the answer. I want to know for a fact. Besides, i have no where left to go in figuring out what the difference is from. My old amp is going to become a doorstop anyways since it's ragged from experimentation and the new one will become my main amp. So why not do one last experiment? I have noting to lose and knowledge to gain. I would rather know solid core sounds no different than assume it doesn't.

[Mark Hammer]

Maybe it's something, maybe it's nothing. One of the things I will note is that solid core wire stays where you put it, while stranded can sometimes stay where you put it....and sometimes (if long enough) move from where you put it. And layout of wires can have an impact on circuit performance.

Other than that, it is hard to imagine what the identical amount of copper in strands or solid form might do at audio frequencies.

[J M Fahey]

That is an interesting point about microphonics, though.

Indeed, but they don't notice it does not come from the wires themselves.
Fact is, wires are soldered to a lot of components, in this case meaning they are mechanically coupled to such components, many of which are microphonic, a typical example being all those caps.
Wires are also soldered to tube sockets, and we unfortunately know a lot about tube microphonics.
No doubt those amps mentioned have a "lively sound" or whatever, but they are searching for the Holy Grail in the wrong place.
On a high gain amp, just dime all pots and whack anywhere inside the chassis, you'll get sound even hitting the pilot lamp or the fuse, but that happens because the whole chassis vibrates, to a varying degree.

[imaradiostar]

Hey Daz, I hope you don't feel like we're picking on you. I think that having a lot of really wise and experienced people here helps make this place what it is. Most people here wouldn't blast you for thinking there is a difference- they'd just want to come up with a good reason why and a way to test the difference!

A local and famous amp builder is known for offering gold and silver plated chassis and high-dollar cork sniffer cap upgrades. Does it make a difference? I'd have to say if someone is willing to pay or the upgrades it DOES make a difference. It doesn't mean there is a noticeable sonic change but if it's worth the peace of mind or quality difference to someone then it's worth it! Of course it may make a real quantifiable difference and that's why someone would pay the big bucks for it. The company I work for has a lot of their sheet metal work done at the same shop as this particular amp builder and they're proud to tell people that they make his high-end chassis and do the plating. It means something that a non-musician is proud of the technical specs of a supposedly "inconsequential" part of the design.

Maybe we should build a pair of IDENTICAL amps- matched PT's and OT's, caps, 1% resistors, etc and see if the different wire makes a difference.

jamie

[Steve Conner]

Hey, gold plated chassis seems like a worthwhile upgrade... At least it looks good!

I think if solid wire ever made a difference, it would be because it stays where it's put, as someone already said. On one of my home-built amps, I had the NFB wire from the speaker jack shuffle around inside the chassis, as the amp rode between gigs in my car, until it snuck (sneaked?) underneath the circuit board and got too close to the terminals of an earlier stage. When the master volume was turned above a certain point, the amp started to hoot like a foghorn! I was puzzled at my bench for hours until I found that stray wire. I rerouted it and the problem was gone. And I guess I can see how a similar stray wire could cause a treble boost or whatever it is that makes the amp seem more alive.

But you can achieve the same control over lead dress with ordinary stranded wire and zip ties.

As a practicing engineer I can't bring myself to believe that the wire makes any other difference outside of that, and possibly the way that it couples mechanical vibrations into the tube sockets. I still think you should check all the pots to make sure they're the same resistances in the two amps, and look for more of those "magic" silver mica caps.