Speaker Phase

[trem]

What dictates whether a speaker terminal is positive or negative? How does the speaker manufacture know that the phase of their speaker matches the phase of the OT on your amp?
Thank You

[Wilder Amplification]

What dictates whether a speaker terminal is positive or negative? How does the speaker manufacture know that the phase of their speaker matches the phase of the OT on your amp?
Thank You

Has nothing to do with the phase of the OT and everything to do with whether the speaker pushes out or pulls in with a positive voltage placed across it.

The physical direction of the voice coil winding against the polarity of the speaker magnet is what determines it.

[trem]

So the the speaker phase has only a 50/50 chance of being "in phase" with a OT if you go by the markings on the speaker terminals?

[Kazooman]

No, what he is saying is that that multiple speakers in the same cabinet must be in phase with each other. There is no matching to be done to the OT. For example, with a 2 X 12 cab you want both speakers to be "pushing out" at the same time, not one out and one in. The same holds for multiple cabinets connected to the same source. If you stack another 2 X 12 on top of the one we just discussed the two cabs should be in phase with each other.

Think about how you hook up a stereo system or theater surround sound system. The speakers are marked (usually red and black terminal) so you can have them all in phase. Otherwise the sound would be lousy. But, if you swapped the wires red for black on every speaker it would be just fine.

[trem]

No, what he is saying is that that multiple speakers in the same cabinet must be in phase with each other. There is no matching to be done to the OT. For example, with a 2 X 12 cab you want both speakers to be "pushing out" at the same time, not one out and one in. The same holds for multiple cabinets connected to the same source. If you stack another 2 X 12 on top of the one we just discussed the two cabs should be in phase with each other.

Think about how you hook up a stereo system or theater surround sound system. The speakers are marked (usually red and black terminal) so you can have them all in phase. Otherwise the sound would be lousy. But, if you swapped the wires red for black on every speaker it would be just fine.

Thanks for the reply. But I am not talking about speakers being in phase with other speakers. I am asking about a speaker being in phase with the amp. Like the phase flip on a Matchless amp. That is why I ask, it is really just a guess if the positive and negative designations on a speaker are actually in phase with the amp. Steve Kimock comes to mind......

[pdf64]

'the positive and negative designations on a speaker are actually in phase with the amp'
My understanding is that there is no such thing as a speaker being in phase with an amp.
It's meaningless.
It can be one way.
Or the other.
Neither is right/wrong, correct/incorrect.
They're just options.
If one way was correct, why would matchless have a switch option for the 'wrong' way?
I'm not aware of any scientifically valid tests in which a majority of listeners say one way is significantly better than the other.
Pickups can be in one phase or another - which way is correct?
Coupling / tone caps in an amp shift the phase response below the break frequency - result being that the low end is no longer in phase with the high end. Why isn't that a problem?

[Wilder Amplification]

Speaker in phase with the amp!?!? Who thinks this shit up!?

The ONLY time phase matters is when you have two signal sources with identical signals or two speakers producing identical sound waves. The human ear cannot discern between one phase and another when dealing with a single signal/sound source. Whether a signal is in or out of phase is relative...it has to be compared to another signal or another sound source.

[trem]

Speaker in phase with the amp!?!? Who thinks this shit up!?

The ONLY time phase matters is when you have two signal sources with identical signals or two speakers producing identical sound waves. The human ear cannot discern between one phase and another when dealing with a single signal/sound source. Whether a signal is in or out of phase is relative...it has to be compared to another signal or another sound source.

I am not "thinking shit up". It was just a simple question. Like I said, talk to Kimock. But never mind, I will just ask on another forum.
Thank You

[Enzo]

A speaker phase switch on an amp would be useful so you could match the amp speaker phase to some other cab's phase. Or possibly for some effect you might want. But it has nothing to do with matching a speaker phase to the amp.

When applying a positive voltage to the + terminal of the speaker, the speaker cone should move forward. That is the proper way to make a speaker.

When using more than one speaker, it is import5ant they all be phased the same, that they all move the same directions at once. That is relative phase. If one cab or speaker is wired backwards compared to another, when plpayed at the same time, their out of phase cone movements will cause audible cancellation.

There is also something called absolute phase. That refers to the signal chain. When a positive going pulse is applied to the system input, the speaker cone should be driven forward. That is absolute phase. Again, it is important so that multiple pieces of equipment can work together. Let's say you have two PA speaker stacks, and each stack has its own amplifier, and the two amps are different brands or something. You don;t want amp A driving its stack out of phase with the stack B and its amp. But again here, the issue is the4 amps and speaker stacks working together, not somehow matching the speaker to the amp.


If you play a sine wave or other symmetrical waveform through speakers, the ear cannot tell phase. However, a good case can be made for some real world signals making a difference. A percussive sound or plosive sound is not repetitive nor is it symmetrical. When the beater hits a bass drum head, it sends a positive pressure wave forward, but the return motion does not complement that peak form. Ideally, your speakers should also move forward on that pulse so your ear hears what it expects. But that is not a guitar string and pickup.

[octal]

I'm pretty sure there is a convention, at least for modern speakers: when positive polarity is applied to the speaker's positive terminal, the cone should move outwards. (i.e. away from the basket when facing the front of the speaker.)

Of course, the amp itself can be phase inverting or not. I think it's a pretty subtle effect. Wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself. I'm going to guess that the 'standard' for guitar pickups is not particularly well defined either.

Nathan

[Wilder Amplification]

I am not "thinking shit up". It was just a simple question. Like I said, talk to Kimock. But never mind, I will just ask on another forum.
Thank You

That wasn't aimed at you. That was aimed more at the author of the particular literature you happened to read, whoever that was. There is LOADS of misinfo out there and it sounds like this is another one of those way off base concocted ideas from someone who knows little about what goes on in an amplifier and decides to pass it off to an unsuspecting public in an attempt to make it appear that they know what they're talking about.

Just like Gerald Weber claiming that metal tube shields on preamp tubes confuse electrons. It's this kinda stuff that just makes us go "Who the hell thinks this shit up?".

[mooreamps]

What dictates whether a speaker terminal is positive or negative? How does the speaker manufacture know that the phase of their speaker matches the phase of the OT on your amp?
Thank You

Because the manufacturer knows, if you want to put either 2 or more speakers inside one cab, you would probably want all of them in phase. I'm not sure what dictates positive or negative. That part may not matter. Easy to find out. Put a 9 volt battery across the speaker terminals ; and then see if the cone pushes out, or in. "That's who figures this s*** out."



-g

[Steve Conner]

Yes, the distinction between relative and absolute phase is an important one to grasp. Relative phase is what makes your speakers sound like kack if you get it wrong, absolute phase is in the realms of tweakology.

I think absolute phase is important within the guts of a guitar preamp, because tubes distort the top and bottom of the waveform differently. So the designer could get different distortion character, depending on where he decided to flip phase, over and above the 180 degree flip he gets with each gain stage. Maybe the phase switch in a Matchless does something like this.

However, a push-pull output stage is symmetrical, so it shouldn't matter what phase you drive it in, or which way you hook it up to the speaker. The PI isn't quite symmetrical, though.

On an unrelated note, here's one of the weirder hi-fi speakers I've seen! I found it while searching for information for this post.
http://nullspace.us/tt12.html
Alnico Tone Tubbies, WTF?

[Wilder Amplification]

Yes, the distinction between relative and absolute phase is an important one to grasp. Relative phase is what makes your speakers sound like kack if you get it wrong, absolute phase is in the realms of tweakology.

I think absolute phase is important within the guts of a guitar preamp, because tubes distort the top and bottom of the waveform differently. So the designer could get different distortion character, depending on where he decided to flip phase, over and above the 180 degree flip he gets with each gain stage. Maybe the phase switch in a Matchless does something like this.

However, a push-pull output stage is symmetrical, so it shouldn't matter what phase you drive it in, or which way you hook it up to the speaker. The PI isn't quite symmetrical, though.

On an unrelated note, here's one of the weirder hi-fi speakers I've seen! I found it while searching for information for this post.
ToneTubby 12" AlNiCo Drivers On An Open Baffle Plus Beyma CP380M With AH!1000 Conical Horn
Alnico Tone Tubbies, WTF?

Exactly. It's not like if you have 1 speaker cabinet and you flip the phase of the cab that it's gonna suck the sound out of the room. It has to be phased differently relative to a near identical sound source in order to hear any difference.

For the record, when the speaker cab is connected in phase, some amps have the speaker output signal out of phase with the input signal from the guitar depending on how it got flipped throughout the amp stages.

But...it sounds to me like another case of someone reading some literature from some well respected audiophool (or read something from someone who misinterpreted something said by a well respected audiophool) and thinks "Well if they said it/if it's posted on the internet it must be true". Perhaps it would've been better received had the OP had posted "I found this article/post on such and such site written by so and so regarding speaker phase relative to the phase of the amp/OT, here it is. Just wondering if there's any truth to this" rather than just automatically assuming that what he read was true.

[defaced]

Would speaker phase relative to input signal phase increase/decrease the tendency for a setup to feedback?