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Somewhat OT, but a tube circuit stumper

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  • Somewhat OT, but a tube circuit stumper

    OK, this isn't about guitar amps, but it is an interesting branch of tube theory which might have at least a little relevance.

    I have a tube Grundig table radio; it has three OPTs and a pair of 6AQ5s in push pull. (See schematic for a similar setup.) The three OPTS are all wired in series. The "middle" OPT has a centertap which goes to B+. Each OPT drives a speaker. (One small speaker on each side and a bass speaker in the middle.) When it's in "mono" mode the tubes work push-pull. When it's in stereo mode, the phase inverter is bypassed and the output tubes work as two separate single ended amps. The middle OPT electrically sums the bass to make it mono. The "conjunctive filter" caps across the middle OPT keep the treble out of the central bass speaker.

    That's all fine and well; I understand how it works and it might be kind of a cool project to build a guitar amp which could do stereo vibrato using only a pair of tubes and two output transformers or work in higher powered mono push-pull mode.

    Here's the thing. I just acquired another Grundig console radio. This one has a similar setup with two small speakers on each side and a mono central bass speaker. Two EL95s in push pull. It does indeed have stereo separation, but it only has A SINGLE OUTPUT TRANSFORMER. I don't have a schematic for it, but I can't for the life of me figure out how they could have possibly accomplished stereo separation with only one transformer. It's a normal looking transformer, nothing potted that might be hiding secrets. I checked the speakers and they are all low impedance speakers, so it's no clever partial OTL circuit or anything like that. There are no "hidden" OPTS mounted on the speaker frames or anything. Does anybody have a clue how they could have possibly accomplished this? I can't understand how the core of the OPT wouldn't magnetically couple and cancel any stereo separation out.

    Nathan
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Originally posted by octal View Post
    Two EL95s in push pull. It does indeed have stereo separation, but it only has A SINGLE OUTPUT TRANSFORMER. I don't have a schematic for it, but I can't for the life of me figure out how they could have possibly accomplished stereo separation with only one transformer.

    Nathan
    It does not look complicated to me. They just fed each side of the OT independently. If you look at it, there is no PI..... This could easily be done with a guitar amp...

    -g
    ______________________________________
    Gary Moore
    Moore Amplifiication
    mooreamps@hotmail.com

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    • #3
      OK, I figured out out. Radio #2 has a second OPT which was hidden inside an aluminum shield can which made it look like an IF transformer.

      ---

      Mooreamps: thanks for responding. It does have a PI. See the EABC80 tube in the schematic? That's a unity gain inverting stage. The "top" EL95 receives a signal out of phase with the bottom one. You can also see that the left and right speakers are wired electrically out of phase, so that they are acoustically in phase.

      So, the bass in this amp is push pull (the two tubes are magnetically summed by the shared core in the middle OPT) and the mid-treble going to the side speakers is single ended!

      Interesting stuff.

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      • #4
        Nice! I think this setup was known as a matrix amplifier.

        I've got a Grundig radio with the little extra speakers on the sides, but it only has a single EL84, and all the speakers are wired in mono.
        "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Steve Conner View Post
          Nice! I think this setup was known as a matrix amplifier.

          I've got a Grundig radio with the little extra speakers on the sides, but it only has a single EL84, and all the speakers are wired in mono.

          Well, I'm going to bet that you own a chassis punch and have some tube sockets and OPTs lying around...

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          • #6
            In a magazine from 1962 shows the amplifier of German Schaub Lorenz Ballerina Konzert Stereo 59.
            For signals above 300 Hz pentode working as a single end for each channel. Output transformers T1 and T2 have been made so that the lower cutoff frequency 300 Hz. Frequencies below 300Hz will be released through the output transformer T3. For frequencies below 300 Hz both single end amplifiers behave as a push pull. Triode part tubes EABC80 is used as a phase inverter that the power amp be work as a push pull for frequencies below 300 Hz. EABC80 works with amplification 1. With trim. potentiometer 50 kOhm precisely adjust amplification to 1.
            In a magazine presents details for DIY output transformers for 3 versions ECL82 (2 x 3W) EL84 (2x4W) and EL34 (2x8W)

            Schaub Lorenz - Balerina Konzert Stereo 59.pdf
            It's All Over Now

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