Hybrid designs with all-tube preamp?

[Gtr_tech]

Yah....I was gonna say its usually the roots rockers and Peter Greene/Paul Kossoff worshippers that want the output section overdrive. Myself I'm not a fan of it....gets too hard to control and you can't really EQ after the output stage. And its hard on the output tubes and associated stuff. With my preamp circuit I can get that throaty dimed mar$hall tone just by rolling back the guitar vol (bypassed with .001u), so its convienient and versatile too since theres a lotta range left on the knob.

[BackwardsBoB]

Your collective thinking is highly evolved, and I, too, have heard it elsewhere, but I don't think it reflects the market. Sort of a metalheads vs. metal perfomers kind of deal. And how many people are really performing metal in public, versus making YouTube videos or playing with themselves when no one's lookin'?

I see it all the time on boards. "That 100W head is just too loud for me!", "I really want a 15W amp with a good high-gain preamp!", "Check out Dr. Z!". Normal men (especially those with money in mid-life crisis) want a big, loud amp. If turning down the master suited their real or imagined needs, we wouldn't be hearing this stuff.

I note that they still sell lots of EL84s. Can't be any other reason.

[defaced]

Your collective thinking is highly evolved, and I, too, have heard it elsewhere, but I don't think it reflects the market. Sort of a metalheads vs. metal perfomers kind of deal. And how many people are really performing metal in public, versus making YouTube videos or playing with themselves when no one's lookin'?

I see it all the time on boards. "That 100W head is just too loud for me!", "I really want a 15W amp with a good high-gain preamp!", "Check out Dr. Z!". Normal men (especially those with money in mid-life crisis) want a big, loud amp. If turning down the master suited their real or imagined needs, we wouldn't be hearing this stuff.

I note that they still sell lots of EL84s. Can't be any other reason.

You're not a metalhead are you?

[BackwardsBoB]

No. I'm a normal man with money in mid-life crisis who plays with himself when no one's lookin'.

Check out this thread to see what I mean:

Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - A 15w Super High Gain Head

[BackwardsBoB]

Don't miss this one either. You are outnumbered!

Carvin.com BBS :: View topic - "Old dudes" and your Carvins

[defaced]

I'll be outnumbered all day long on the forums of bedroom rockers; it doesn't matter. Metal is a real genre that exists beyond bedrooms and youtube, and to think that's the only place where it live is naive at best. Go to a metal show like the many many many I have, and be in a metal band like I have, and you'll see why you need that setup to get that sound. It has noting to do with age or money. It has to do with that's what you need to get the job done if you're going to do it "for real". Hence, you want to keep your sound tight and play with a metal drummer at band practice, or at your first club gig, or at the DIY show in that guys living room down the street, you need a bigger amp son.

[BackwardsBoB]

That is a bit of a contradiction isn't it? Most metal guys (me and most everyone I talk to) want a very tight sound at levels where you can keep up with a heavy handed drummer (ear shattering). The only way you get there is a tight power amp. And power amp distortion with high gain preamp distortion sounds like ass.

Dr. D. James Kennedy used to tell about meeting people who would say "I'm not worried about Hell. I'm no worse than my friends." - To which DJK would reply "Maybe that's why they're your friends."

[defaced]

Wha?

[J M Fahey]

I'll be outnumbered all day long on the forums of bedroom rockers; it doesn't matter. Metal is a real genre that exists beyond bedrooms and youtube

Couldn't agree more.
You can't play metal with a 15W amp, no way.
At most, you can practise metal licks, which is a very different game.
If you heve to mike it to be heard onstage, you might just use a Pod straight to the board, and rely on monitors.
Nor with a 4xEL84 30W amp.
The least needed, which sounds *very* good, is around 50W with 2x6L6/EL34/6550 driving 4x12" or at least a *very* good 2x12", with a couple V30 or G12H class speakers.
Don't try to insult anybody, maybe I'm too old school and/or have too many (big) stage years on my back.
I agree that 100W with 4 big bottles driving 4x12" may be overkill outside a Stadium, not because of the sound pressure to the audience, but because you can't hear drums , vocals and other instruments properly.

[Steve Conner]

I think a metal amp can't have enough power in its power stage, if you're actually going to use it live. That's probably why Randall used solid-state power stages, more bang for his buck.

I'm no mosher, but I've jammed with a really heavy-hitting drummer who most definitely was, and could make my ears hurt even with ear protection. Cracked cymbals, blood all over the snare drum kind of guy. Definitely had issues.

I had 60W going into a 4x12" and that wasn't anywhere near enough, every knob on the amp was up full and it was just uselessly farting instead of making that big James Hetfield rhythm sound that I wanted, and I felt his drumming demanded. 600W into a 16x12" would have been more like it.

I was forced to use one of those cheap Valvestate 4x12s because that was what was at the gig. The speakers in them aren't the loudest, most aggressive things in the world. Maybe if I'd had a cabinet loaded with EVM12Ls or Vintage 30s, it would have been better.

For bedroom rocking in an apartment, the opposite is true, you can't have too LITTLE power. The amp I use most often for practice at home has a single 8" speaker with 0.3w of ferocious grind.

[J M Fahey]

Fully agree.
Those (presumed tube) 60W into a regular 1960 cabinet would have been perfect; you were handicapped by the G12L in the Valvestate cabinet.
In that case, an SS amp with 100/120W would have been enough.
Another problem you had is that you wanted chest-thumping sound. Nothing against it, but it would have required an extra 3dB, either with better speakers or higher power.(or both)
I've lived the last 40 years by making tons of 100W SS or the occasional 50W tube amp, always for "live" players, or bands which practise in acoustically insulated rooms, at stage levels.
My rule of thumb is, "the drummer sets the band volume", because he has no volume pot, so he in practical terms is equivalent to a loud 50W amp on full tilt.
That's why I always suggest either 50 Tube watts on "10" or 100 SS watts, these *never* over 7 on the Master volume.
Tube amps start getting tasty above 5 or 6, with lots of teeth on 10; while SS *can* provide very good sound, but volume is critical: below "5" they sound thin and brittle *or* mushy/lifeless ( EQ overcompensation to avoid the first), and over 7 they lose edge, having actually less "penetration power" on 10 than on 7.
Power must be chosen so the amps lie close to their sweet spot, if possible.
That's also why SS has to have ample power reserve, so as to never clip itself.
We are talking Heavy/Metal/Punk rock here.
For Blues players you may very well play with around 30W Tube amps, because their drummers are less heavy handed.
Well, that's about it.

[Hardtailed]

Currently play through a 2X KT77 (around 60-70W, haven't scoped it) with an oversized 2X12 (G12T-75 and WGS Reaper HP 50W G12H clone). I can play Metallica and Pantera just fine.
The problem is those occasional gigs with a small PA where we only run the vocals, once I crank my amp enough to compensate, I get a killer rock sound but the metal tone isn't happening anymore (I need to cover both bases with my cover band)

So it's not necessarily a question of being able to play metal in my bedroom (I use Amplitube for that), it's a question of trying to get my tone from the preamp and then coupling it to a power amp that sounds exactly the same at the various stage volumes I get to play.

[J M Fahey]

Try your actual preamp, which you like, into a 100 to 200W SS power amp, driving your excellent box, and post what you find.
Actual testing rules.