Electron path of travel

[Steve Conner]

Well, argue as violently as you like about what is the best way to visualize circuit operation, that's on-topic.

But mooreamps et al. are turning it into a sh!t slinging match of who stole whose circuit ideas. Completely pointless, we know that in reality everything was invented by Randall Smith of Mesa.

While I'm dissing Lynn Olson's work, here is a spectrogram of the distortion from one of my hi-fi builds. http://scopeboy.com/spectrum2.gif

[mooreamps]

I'm not going to get into who started what.. All I said was :

1. Electrons are particles.
2. Edison's light bulb proves current flow through a vacuum.
3. When electrons strike the plate, they flow back to the positive side of the High Voltage power supply...

-g

[Enzo]

How does a light bulb - a continuous conductor sitting in a vacuum - in any way demonstrate electrons flowing through said vacuum? In the case of a bulb, they flow through the filament, not the vacuum.. It is in a vaccum tube that they actually flow through a vacuum.

[Jazz P Bass]

2. Edison's light bulb proves current flow through a vacuum.

I do believe Gary is speaking of the "Edison Effect"

[redelephant]

Well, argue as violently as you like ...Completely pointless, we know that in reality everything was invented by Randall Smith of Mesa.

While I'm dissing Lynn Olson's work, here is a spectrogram of the distortion from one of my hi-fi builds. http://scopeboy.com/spectrum2.gif

Nice spectrum u've got there. SS?

No Randall hasn't invented the stuff, only he takes patents on everything he does

[frankeg]

Sense I made the original post....At 50 years old, I am new to electronics, having just delved into this stuff in the last few years. I was taught, by more than one person, that electron flow is negative to positive outside the source and positive to negative inside the source. It has always been easy for me to think in those terms. So when I read about electrons going home via the cathode and then through ground, it was kind of shocking for me to grasp. I have a hard enough time trying to learn this stuff with just one path of travel.
I am not questioning the validity of anything you guys are discussing. But I am sure it is not too difficult for you guys to imagine how confusing "conventional" flow might be to a student at my level of understanding. Maybe I am at fault for not posting some type of disclaimer with each question I ask that stipulates my level of aptitude. I suppose I figure if I ask a certain question, it is probably a give-away of my abilities to any of you guys that have a degree and long time involvement in electronics....
Thank You

Hey Trem, I asked a 2009 graduate of Drexel University (EE) what an electron is and without hesitation he said: "We don't know" so I'd say your questions are valid... For the most part, we're still dealing with theory - trying to explain what we don't understand based upon what we observe...As our methods of observation improve we edit our theory. In particle theory specifically, most of our conventional wisdom has been rewritten (check out quarks). For a tube amp "geek" like myself, electrons boiling off the plate, controlled by the screen and attracted to the plate works just fine...Like you, I'm interested in the how and why but realize the limits of our knowledge. To be honest, there probably isn't one person here who wouldn't admit the possibility that everything we said may one day be proved wrong. It's the nature of the beast...However, nothing stops us from playing with what we don't fully understand and getting satisfying results... After all the thinking was done, someone has to touch the fire to prove that it burns...Thanks for asking a good question!

[defaced]

Oh cool, a fellow York PAer. How ya doin?

---

The funny thing about tubes, is they work alot like arcs. Being a welding engineer, which way the electrons flow is pretty obvious because there is a huge difference in the heat associated with emitting electrons and absorbing electrons, about 30% / 70%, respectively. When you press the TIG pedal and your tungsten disappears, you know you have the polarity wrong. When you press the TIG pedal and the tungsten makes a beautiful stable arc, you know you got the polarity right. It's literally that night and day. This also is a probably a good explanation of why the anode/plate of a tube is so much physically larger than the cathode, though without a plasma things change alot I imagine.

[frankeg]

"Oh cool, a fellow York PAer. How ya doin?"

Very well, thank you... I'm a nukie down at Peach Bottom. We play a little with electrons but really have fun with neutrons! BTW, it's actually Red Lion but who else would know where that is...

[defaced]

Oh cool. I play a little in the neutron world, usually playing with the guys who build the toys you play with, or working with them to figure out how to build them/fix them.

[trem]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

This thread is supposed to be about visualising circuit operation for newbies, and you're dragging it way off topic. Please go and bitchslap each other somewhere else, such as the Lobby or Parking Lot forums.

Hey Trem, I asked a 2009 graduate of Drexel University (EE) what an electron is and without hesitation he said: "We don't know" so I'd say your questions are valid... For the most part, we're still dealing with theory - trying to explain what we don't understand based upon what we observe...As our methods of observation improve we edit our theory. In particle theory specifically, most of our conventional wisdom has been rewritten (check out quarks). For a tube amp "geek" like myself, electrons boiling off the plate, controlled by the screen and attracted to the plate works just fine...Like you, I'm interested in the how and why but realize the limits of our knowledge. To be honest, there probably isn't one person here who wouldn't admit the possibility that everything we said may one day be proved wrong. It's the nature of the beast...However, nothing stops us from playing with what we don't fully understand and getting satisfying results... After all the thinking was done, someone has to touch the fire to prove that it burns...Thanks for asking a good question!

Thanks -
I started thinking to my self, "My God, am I the only one who does not understand this?"
As I said earlier, some of the guys on this forum kind of forget how much theory,math, and knowledge they have when compared to somebody at my level. Part of the troubles of this whole post was my fault. Instead of being embarrassed, I just need to say exactly what it is I do not understand and ask for a very clear, and rudimentary explanation.
I really do appreciate all the patient responses I have gotten.
Thank You

[frankeg]

I started thinking to my self, "My God, am I the only one who does not understand this?"
As I said earlier, some of the guys on this forum kind of forget how much theory,math, and knowledge they have when compared to somebody at my level. Part of the troubles of this whole post was my fault. Instead of being embarrassed, I just need to say exactly what it is I do not understand and ask for a very clear, and rudimentary explanation.
I really do appreciate all the patient responses I have gotten.

Good point! There's all levels here which is pretty cool in my book. I'm a EET verses an EE, which means 2 years verses 4 years. I use the equations the EE's derive. I like the fact that you can get as deep as you want with this forum but for the most part we keep it simple. I don't recall for certain but I believe Leo started as a repairman. I don't think he was an engineer...BTW, another web source for good and sometimes deep info is Randall Akiens site. Really smart guy who doesn't mind sharing his knowledge...

[frankeg]

Oh cool. I play a little in the neutron world, usually playing with the guys who build the toys you play with, or working with them to figure out how to build them/fix them.

That's cool! Happy you're here! What's nice about the nuke world is that we have a good mix of analog and digital devices. Most others have abandoned discrete analog circuits years ago but we kept them because they're robust and not too fussy about ground schemes. So in a sense, I get to play with my hobby at work as well.

[Wilder Amplification]

I disputed this very thing once before on this forum.

It's been a recent thing I've noticed that when speaking electronics that people have been having the tendency to refer to conventional current flow, things passing to ground, positive flowing to negative, etc etc. However, this is ELECTRONICS...the ELECTRON in ELECTRONICS means that electronics is the study of ELECTRON FLOW...NOT conventional current flow. Electron flow direction is opposite that of "conventional current flow".

When trying to grasp the concept of valve operation, you should always think in terms of electron flow. This is why they've been known as "electron valves" or "electron tubes" since the dawn of the valve age. They operate upon the concept of thermionic emission of electrons. The pulling force that pulls the electrons toward the plate does in fact eminate from the plate toward the cathode but this is nothing more than a pulling force to pull the electrons toward it. However, the electrons flow from the negative side of the supply (which has a surplus of electrons), boil off of the cathode via thermionic emission, then are pulled by the positive charge on the plate (opposite charges attract) toward the plate. An opposing negative charge which fluctuates with input signal eminates from the control grid to control the rate at which electrons can flow to the plate via repelling the negative charge of the electrons within the cathode's space charge (like charges repel...since the grid is negative with respect to the cathode this creates a repelling force). The negative electrons boiled off of the cathode are pulled to the plate, and return back to the positive side of the supply (which has a shortage of electrons).

This is why trying to think in terms of conventional current flow doesn't work when trying to understand valves. Nothing gets boiled off of the plate like electrons get boiled off of the cathode so nothing can flow from the plate toward the negatively charged cathode. The plate can only possess the positive pulling force which pulls the negative electrons toward it, but nothing actually flows FROM it except for the positive pulling force from the supply.

Conventional current flow is just the pulling force created by the shortage of electrons on the positive side of the supply and this force does extend from the positive side of the supply towards the negative. However, the electrons that pulling force pulls flow from the negative side of the supply toward that pulling force which eminates from the positive side of the supply.

It's ELECTRONICS guys...the study of ELECTRON flow...not "conventional current flow".

[g1]

Well, sorry to be a stick in the mud but the definition of electronics is not specifically "the study of electron flow" but more often "The science and technology of electronic phenomena" which often doesn't care which way we envision the current flowing.
The field of electronics was around long before electron flow was accepted as being from negative to positive. As Enzo mentioned, the arrows on diode and transistor schematic symbols are based on conventional current flow.
Try to translate the "right hand rule for electromagnets". It will not work unless you are thinking of conventional current flow.
I'm not saying I disagree with using electron flow, just that you can't just throw out conventional current flow; too much of the basics were developed with conventional current flow in mind.
Both types of current flow are still used in the electronics industry.

[mooreamps]

Well, it's just not worth getting all spun up on semantics. In US Navy tech schools, they teach current flow from neg to pos. In the University, all the "just ungodly very expensive" engineering texts illustrate current flow has hole movement inside a PN junction.. Well, perhaps in this arena where we are dealing with vacuum tubes, how about we just let the electrons boil off the cathode and travel on their merry little way to the plate, and just call it a day.... :|


-g