There is PCB and then there is PCB

[kg]

totally agreed rg. obv the repeatability of PCB is far superior.

i just wanted to draw attention to the fact that designs that work in one realm wrt component values don't always translate to the other.

[Jared Purdy]

It is beyond my comprehension why anyone building a Tweed Deluxe clone would use a PCB instead of turret board or PTP. I thought that the whole idea of going vintage was to, well, go vintage? Come to think of it, I'm actually totally blown away that there is even such a thing as a PCB for a tweed clone!! It just seems ridiculous!

[R.G.]

i just wanted to draw attention to the fact that designs that work in one realm wrt component values don't always translate to the other.

And you are completely right about that, as usual.

Jared Purdy

It is beyond my comprehension why anyone building a Tweed Deluxe clone would use a PCB instead of turret board or PTP. I thought that the whole idea of going vintage was to, well, go vintage? Come to think of it, I'm actually totally blown away that there is even such a thing as a PCB for a tweed clone!! It just seems ridiculous!

Your other posts show you're a thinking kind of guy. I don't think it's beyond your comprehension at all. You did, after all nail the reason, hidden in "I thought the whole idea".

It is a matter of objectives. If the objective is to get people to buy stuff because it has some mythos, whether that edifice is constructed of "vintage" (although constructed of modern substitutes) or one of the others like "hand wired", "point to point", "NOS" - the list goes on and on - then conditioning people like Pavlov's famous canines to hear the word and think "mystical magical tone for me, obtainable no other way... I'll take it!" is a good way to sell the goods. And it's even realistic. Look at the makeup industry, which consists almost entirely of selling people dreams and promises in very expensive packaging.

If, on the other hand, the objective is to provide as close to the original circuit (or sound, maybe a different target) as possible with modern parts, do it consistently (they all work the same, for better or worse), and do it at a low price to the end user (or high profit margin to the maker, or both), then there is an argument to be made for PCB construction.

About now, the mods-enthusiast-contingent will be thinking if not saying "Yeah, but look how hard it is to mod PCB amps!!" And they're right. If what you want it The Sound, as close as you can get to it with modern parts, and get it reliably, there is a case to be made for PCB methods. If what you want is NOT the original sound or a facsimile of it, but instead a platform for mods, there are better techniques than PCB.

It's a matter of objectives - is the objective the sound, or some kind of feel-good promise that the internal structure is somewhat similar in some ways to what might have been done before, or a platform for modding?

I think you understand it, you've just been sold a lot of promises. If promises are what is wanted, great. I buy promises at times too if they make me feel good. But it's important not to believe promises that are vague and may not be kept.

[big_teee]

It is beyond my comprehension why anyone building a Tweed Deluxe clone would use a PCB instead of turret board or PTP. I thought that the whole idea of going vintage was to, well, go vintage? Come to think of it, I'm actually totally blown away that there is even such a thing as a PCB for a tweed clone!! It just seems ridiculous!

I agree. Tube depot has a good price on the kit, and I guess, all a guy would need to do is replace the PCB with a Turret board.
I haven't asked, but they might even allow someone to do that. I was blown away that they sold it that way also.
They also have a nice Marshall 18 watt clone, but It has a niffty red turret board included.
I figured some of you guys would chime in and say that the PCB would be just as good.
I think I would probably be laughed out of the local vintage guitar shop.
Later,
Terry

[kg]

I think I would probably be laughed out of the local vintage guitar shop.

well, if that's the case, at least you know how much technical wisdom they really posess. i'm sure the place will still be fine to pick up strings/picks/straps/whatever, but don't be taking advice about electronics engineering or theory from them!

[GregS]

I agree. Tube depot has a good price on the kit, and I guess, all a guy would need to do is replace the PCB with a Turret board.
I haven't asked, but they might even allow someone to do that. I was blown away that they sold it that way also.
They also have a nice Marshall 18 watt clone, but It has a niffty red turret board included.
I figured some of you guys would chime in and say that the PCB would be just as good.
I think I would probably be laughed out of the local vintage guitar shop.
Later,
Terry

What is your objective with this amp? If it is to get a good price selling it to a local vintage shop then who knows if they'll pay more for it because it has a turret or eyelet board instead of a PCB. Either way it isn't exactly vintage.

If it's for your own personal use then the simple fact that it has a PCB in it shouldn't be a problem. It might turn out better with the PCB than if you used a turret board for reasons already mentioned in this thread. Since you'll be doing the soldering yourself as long as you do a good job you shouldn't have to worry about bad solder joints.

[big_teee]

What is your objective with this amp? If it is to get a good price selling it to a local vintage shop then who knows if they'll pay more for it because it has a turret or eyelet board instead of a PCB. Either way it isn't exactly vintage.

If it's for your own personal use then the simple fact that it has a PCB in it shouldn't be a problem. It might turn out better with the PCB than if you used a turret board for reasons already mentioned in this thread. Since you'll be doing the soldering yourself as long as you do a good job you shouldn't have to worry about bad solder joints.

Your 100% correct on all counts.
However It's something that just goes against the grain, it being a vintage type amp with a PCB.
I don't think Leo had PCBs back then.
Another comparison, is showing a muriel of George Washington crossing the potomac, with a GPS in one hand, and a BlackBerry in the other!
It just Ain't Right
As far as building it for myself or for sale.
Everything like a Guitar or an Amp is Probably for Sale for enough Jack!
Enjoyed the discussion!
Later,
Terry

[g1]

There's good pcb and there's bad pcb. There are good and bad pcb designs. There are good and bad amps using ptp, turret board, eyelet board, or pcb. Did Leo not use them because he thought they weren't as good? More likely he would have if they had been readily available at the time. Amps with pcb's can be very serviceable or not. Fender Super 60 was terrible to work on. An amp like R.G. is talking about with all parts easily accessible? I would rather work on that than many non-pcb amps. Old Hiwatts look beautiful inside but can be a real pain to work on. There are pcb amps around which are old enough to be considered "vintage". Ampegs (and maybe Peavey?) were using pcb's in the early 70's or maybe earlier. The V4 from the 70's used rubber shock mounts for the chassis and had access panels in the chassis so you could get at both sides of the boards. Filter caps, big power resistors, and output tube sockets were on the chassis, not on the boards. For a pcb amp, it was fairly well thought out. I would think there would be other vintage amps from the 70's or even 60's that used pcb's that sound great and are no less reliable than their non-pcb counterparts.
My point is the same as others here have stated: whether or not an amp uses a pcb is only part of the equation. It can be done as well or better (that replicatability and stray L&C thing again) as any type of non pcb amp.

[big_teee]

I definitely think PCBs have their place just not on a vintage type, that originally didn't have a PCB.
I really don't care for putting the tubes, Pots jacks and everything on a PCB.
That's progress I guess.
Later,
Terry

[MWJB]

Big_Teee "PCB" and "Vintage" are not mutually exclusive, I am aware of amps that had PCBs from 1959, before many revered vintage amps were conceived.

Many of the more reliable PCB amps do not have the tubes mounted on the PCB, nor the jacks.

A vintage amp that did not have a PCB, will not have a PCB. An amp based on a vintage design may or may not have a PCB. Pros & cons relate to how well conceived that particular PCB is & how serviceable. In most cases they are not as serviceable as hand wired amps, but they do cost over 50% less...it's your call, buy a new cheap amp every 15-20yrs, or buy one hand wired amp that will see you out and have it serviced every few years.

This idea that hand wiring is somehow infallible is pure bullshit. Manufacturers did what they had to do to get amps to test OK & go out the door, not much more than that. See enough amps and you'll see vintage amps with test shop return stickers & quick fixes. Many vintage amps have inherant glitches, often caused by "just about adequate if you don't drive it too hard with the presence & treble dimed" layout issues, a result of handwiring. Don't even start me on some of the poorly "upgraded" PCB to handwird amps that I have seen! Too frequently I see amps that were PCB & working fine, rewired for better tone...by a chimpanzee by the looks of things & now the amp is ungiggable. Look at the trouble shooting & repair threads, look at the 5E3 builders thread...count the handwired amps with issues? A proven PCB based design could reduce these significantly.

If I'm buiying an amp, which admittedly I don't do these days, I'd go for handwired as long as the layout looked good to me, because I accept that one day it'll need servicing & I don't want to make life hard for myself. If I wasn't bothered about working on it, then I might buy a PCB amp, retube it, blueprint it and just play it until it needed replacing. Sometimes an amp is only available in one version, then if you want that amp...that's what you have to buy (e.g. nobody makes an exact copy of the PCB 59 Bassman in hand-wired format, so usually when converted from PCB other perameters are changed along the way).

Whichever amp has the best tone is down to the specific amp in question, not arbitrarily whether it has a PCB or not. The PCB is rarely the ONLY tangible difference between the 2, many high end hand wired builds share relatively few parts with an original vintage amp (in terms of brands, if not broad design).

And finally, yes PCBs are "progress", you can now buy a vintage based amp for between a third and a quarter of what the real thing would have cost new in the day...or you can buy a high end, hand-wired build for a little less than the original amp cost new in the day...or you can buy a cheapo, throwaway all PCB amp for less than the transformers alone in the high end amp cost. You have the choice.

[Enzo]

Leo didn't have pcbs back then?

If they were available and cost less than the alternative, Leo would have used them. Leo's eyelet board was not chosen because it represented some old world craftsmanship. It was cheap.

[big_teee]

Leo didn't have pcbs back then?

If they were available and cost less than the alternative, Leo would have used them. Leo's eyelet board was not chosen because it represented some old world craftsmanship. It was cheap.

Your missing my point.
If your making a 50s 5e3 Deluxe replica type amp, isn't it a slap in the face, and making Leo Turn over in his Grave to put a PCB in that particular Amp?
Yes Leo would be making them modular and cheap now like the rest of the folks do.
However He didn't then, and IMO the PCB has no business in that particular amp kit.
When This particular kit in question was made up and designed.
I'm surprised that they didn't take in to consideration, that the amp would be highly scrutinized, and debated, just like we are now!
There was already a eyelet board design used that had been used for many years, I'm just surprised they decided to put the PCB in its place.
If I built up this particular kit, and put it up for sale at my local vintage guitar shop on consignment, The very first thing the owner would ask, is it PTP or PCB?
Yes I do sell things there on consignment, I sell hand built pickups that way on a regular basis.
Like I said earlier, have enjoyed the debate.
Later,
Terry

[defaced]

If your making a 50s 5e3 Deluxe replica type amp, isn't it a slap in the face, and making Leo Turn over in his Grave to put a PCB in that particular Amp?

Who cares? It seems like an ass thing to say, but if someone wants to build their amp out of buffalo chips, fried monkey mucus, and sea weed, I don't care what amp, it's all the more power to them. It's not like every clone is a tribute in honor of the designer and worthy of a 21 gun solute. Honestly, I'd rather see a well made amp with a PCB then some of the attempts at turret/eyelet/P2P I've seen.

[MWJB]

"If I built up this particular kit, and put it up for sale at my local vintage guitar shop on consignment, The very first thing the owner would ask, is it PTP or PCB?" The very first thing the shops round here would do is work out what mark up they can get away with, then wait for a customer who didn't know the difference between PCB or eyelet board. ;-) Amps under consignment don't cost the shop anything, just a little space, they'll sell it for what they fancy. Even if they don't, it still might be enough to lure in a few punters, who'll be more than happy to buy a Blues Jr in red tolex! I used to love watching consignment amps appear in the local shop, they stayed relatively cheap until there was any interest, or an unproven anectode about how somebody famous kicked one about a stage once...then the price went up in hundreds, from week to week.

Leo didn't invent the 5E3, it's the minumum number of parts to enable PI driven push-pull, very similar amps were built by Gibson, Danelectro & others, often with more features ,like trem. Eyelet board Fenders WERE modular builds, pre fabricated boards & pot buss assemblies, installed on an assembly line...hmmm sounds familiar! Leo would have leapt at PCB...whether the quality of such PCBs would have surpassed what we have now...I dunno, I think it's doubtful. The classic RIs generally far outlast warranty...that's all that was expected of Fenders in the day. Note that they had new models appearing every few months, the longevity of the tweeds (which Fender point blank refused to build, even when players expressed that was what they wanted in the 60's) would have become a major thorn in Leo's side, when there were new units to shift.

[jpfamps]

This idea that hand wiring is somehow infallible is pure bullshit.

Or indeed hand made. I certainly wouldn't want to fly in a aeroplane with an entirely hand made engine.

Don't even start me on some of the poorly "upgraded" PCB to handwird amps that I have seen! Too frequently I see amps that were PCB & working fine, rewired for better tone...by a chimpanzee by the looks of things & now the amp is ungiggable. Look at the trouble shooting & repair threads, look at the 5E3 builders thread...count the handwired amps with issues? A proven PCB based design could reduce these significantly.

I've learnt to bite my tongue when I see these in the workshop. Comments like "which idiot installed this" have been met with "I did" too many times....