Pots at B+ Voltage

[guitarmike2107]

Most retailers I've dealt with don't a clue about CE/RoHS, even though it's their responsibility (hardly surprising as many builders don't have a clue; at a recent trade show I had an extensive chat with a very well-regarded UK-based amp builder who had absolutely NO idea about either CE or RoHS).

It's not the retailers responsibility unless they are the importing agent, Some retailers though won't stock items that are not CE marked, but they are normally the ones that are a bit more switched on.. few and far between though.

But your right about well known builders not having a clue, one very well known tech/builder I have spoken with said his amps had passed all the safety PAT tests and so were fine... Sad actually.

"vintage but better"

Brilliant, mind if I use this on my marketing material if I ever sell amps

The biggest problem with CE/UL standards is that they are not freely avaibale, so for a small guy selling a few amps a year he has no insentive to fork out the cash for the standards, hence why having a discussion area on a website about it would help raise the awareness of builders, but also give them a helping hand up... which is where the conficts can happen.

[guitarmike2107]

In the UK, for an item to be investigated for being non-RoHS or non-CE compliant, it would require a complaint to be made to the local trading standards office who would then investigate it. This would initially simply require the importer to provided the requisite documentation, assuming of course that this exists......

It may seem malicious to report someone, but if your a small builder where every sale is needed and a customer says why should I buy your handwired "vintage but better" amp for £1000, fully CE marked when I can buy the same circuit also hand wired from Mr X through his ebay site for £250 and he says its built to the safety standards, (but clearly isn’t) what would you do.

I actually had a German gentleman ask me to build him an amp, he had already bought the cheap hand wired version off eBay but wasn't happy with it, needless to say my price wasn’t agreeable with him

[jpfamps]

It's not the retailers responsibility unless they are the importing agent, Some retailers though won't stock items that are not CE marked, but they are normally the ones that are a bit more switched on.. few and far between though.

I know it's importer's responsibility. If you'd read my previous post thoroughly you would have seen that I clearly stated this. However, as I went on to say, most US boutique builder's wares are imported directly by retailers, in which case it is the retailer's responsibility.

But your right about well known builders not having a clue, one very well known tech/builder I have spoken with said his amps had passed all the safety PAT tests and so were fine... Sad actually.

To be honest most consumer electronics probably doesn't under go PAT before sale. From a personal safety point of view, I would prefer to use an amp that under gone PAT than one that simply had a CE mark slapped on it.......

The biggest problem with CE/UL standards is that they are not freely avaibale, so for a small guy selling a few amps a year he has no insentive to fork out the cash for the standards, hence why having a discussion area on a website about it would help raise the awareness of builders, but also give them a helping hand up... which is where the conficts can happen.

Indeed. It does seem a bit of a racket.

Mind you there is a distinct difference between UL, CSA, SEMKO, BSI et al and CE.

The former are agencies that approve consumer goods, whereas the later is mark applied to goods for sale in the EU to demonstrate that they conform to a set of standards. This is an important distinction.

[jpfamps]

It may seem malicious to report someone, but if your a small builder where every sale is needed and a customer says why should I buy your handwired "vintage but better" amp for £1000, fully CE marked when I can buy the same circuit also hand wired from Mr X through his ebay site for £250 and he says its built to the safety standards, (but clearly isn’t) what would you do.

I actually had a German gentleman ask me to build him an amp, he had already bought the cheap hand wired version off eBay but wasn't happy with it, needless to say my price wasn’t agreeable with him

Well, I am a small builder, and every sale is very welcome (and unlike many builders this is not a hobby or second income, as long with repairs it's my full-time job). And our amps are CE marked, and RoHS compliant.

Yes, there are plenty of people selling amps on ebay cheaply to make a bit of money on the side; there are plenty of amp builders that seem to have little knowledge of CE or RoHS (in fact you may well be making money selling them parts.........); and there are plenty of US-made boutique amps being imported into the UK that conform to neither.

Quite frankly I really can't get too upset by this.

[R.G.]

Mind you there is a distinct difference between UL, CSA, SEMKO, BSI et al and CE. The former are agencies that approve consumer goods, whereas the later is mark applied to goods for sale in the EU to demonstrate that they conform to a set of standards. This is an important distinction.

It is important; moreover, it illustrates a point. Safety inspection/certification and related matters are complicated, especially where international trade is involved. It's not a thing where learning a few tricks can get/keep you out of trouble.

Before I go any further into this, let me be clear (you'll see why I say this as I proceed): I am not a safety inspector, nor a lawyer. Any advice I offer on safety issues is of a general sort, not guaranteed to be accurate or complete.

The safety certification game is not a place for amateurs. I've been involved in designing electronics that had to be certified since 1973, off and on. I am very much an amateur in the game, because what I do is design the stuff, not spend all day, every day testing and inspecting and reading standards, which change at random intervals. The practices which I learned at first would not pass today's inspections in some particulars.

Even more interesting to me is the approach that the testing labs now have. At one time, in European countries, if the governmental testing lab passed your stuff, you could no longer be successfully sued for damages, as it was presumed safe if it passed. No longer.

Today, EU testing follows the USA model. The tester certifies that they can't find any way the stuff doesn't comply with the recommended standard; but this does not relieve the maker of any liability if someone gets shocked or burned down. This is why the CE mark has to be applied by the manufacturer - it's the *manufacturer* that says "this is safe", not the testing lab. The practices which are judged to pass testing are not documented, only the results. So the safety standards are not compendiums of "do this, and it's safe"; they are compendiums of "if you don't do at least this, it's NOT safe".

The EU law allows for self certification by the manufacturer. In that sense, just slapping a CE sticker on it is according to regulation is complying with the regulations - except that if the testing wasn't done and documented by the maker, it will be a big deal to the maker in court if someone gets hurt. And beyond that, if there is a complaint or a random inspection by a rogue testing lab, sales are stopped by law until it's (re)certified to pass AND the items already in the market are presumed not to pass unless fixed.

The legalisms involved are serious. This is why I personally will not ever offer advice about safety saying "this is safe" or "this will pass safety testing". I can and have said "I've seen things passed that had this done" and "this isn't safe" based on things I've seen that were not passed or were plainly forbidden in the standards.

Given all that, I can contribute things I've seen in other places that MAY meet current standards (bear in mind: the law says you're responsible if anything you make ever causes damage by electrocution, fire, decomposition, any way whatsoever) and where my opinion (which is worth what you paid for it) is that some practice or other is unsafe and something I wouldn't do to my self or others.

Quite frankly I really can't get too upset by this.

No one ever is - until they get sued. 8-O

[jpfamps]

No one ever is - until they get sued. 8-O

What I meant was that I am not too concerned about other small builders not being RoHS or CE compliant. We certainly take both seriously.

Regarding the safety of any amp, my guess is the most likely reason that anyone might get injured is due to a defect in manufacturing rather than an inherent design flaw, which of course is would be the manufacturers responsibility.

[woodyc]

I worked on an amp this morning with the high side of a front panel pot at 500V. Ampeg B-42-X. I'm trying to think of something positive to say about it, but I'm coming up blank.

[guitarmike2107]

Regarding the safety of any amp, my guess is the most likely reason that anyone might get injured is due to a defect in manufacturing rather than an inherent design flaw, which of course is would be the manufacturers responsibility.

Or misuse.

This has been an interesting side thread

[jmaf]

I worked on an amp this morning with the high side of a front panel pot at 500V. Ampeg B-42-X. I'm trying to think of something positive to say about it, but I'm coming up blank.

Which pot was it?