Any rare/cool schematics out there?

[dai h.]

fwiw, "Macguyver" has been around as he says and isn't new here (I recognize the email addy). I remember giving him some stuff (the "root 666" files?) and he gave me some schemos. I just gave him a bunch of stuff I had (but I think he had some of the stuff already) since I don't really trade, and I got a couple which I hadn't seen before. Again, I don't really do this myself but I don't think it's such a horrible thing if someone else wants to do that (and Macguyver I know is not the only person who does this since I remember other people trading here in the past). Broadly speaking, I don't think it's such a bad idea to keep some things as "limited distribution" but I guess it depends on the exact item.

[Le Basseur]

Broadly speaking, I don't think it's such a bad idea to keep some things as "limited distribution" but I guess it depends on the exact item.

Dai,with all due respect...
How much "broady"?...and what's the criteria?
Age?
Tech qualification?
Ego?
Talent of persuading others (BS)?

Regards,
Le Basseur

[dai h.]

probably depends on each person. Different standards. If someone asked for their schemo not to be, or how original it is, how rare, etc. etc.

[Macguyver]

"I've been on the ampage forum for 3 years or so, but I haven't been as active as I used to be in the old forum since the new forum started. The reason being that m...bla bla bla...."

Whatever.

So... if I needed a schematic for something, and you had it, and posted a thread and a request for it, I would have to give you something in order to get it? Screw that.

If so, yer in the minority around here, son. Like I said, join the community for a while and you'll find you'll get what you need, and maybe even what you want.

Right now you are acting like a mercenary prick.

If you started a thread looking for a schematic that I have, I would have no problem giving it to you so long as I am on the forum, have the time and I see your thread, without the expectation of something in return besides maybe a thank you. I've done it many times in the past, like I've said previously, its not like I'm losing anything, its file sharing. I'm sorry to everyone on this forum if my original posting seemed a bit mercenary in nature, I diddn't know 'trade' was sort of a dirty word, in hindsight it would have been more appropriate to call what I was looking to do is 'share' schematics. I just want to get across to everyone that I have no bad intentions, I'm not gonna clone and sell these amps, I'm not gonna sell my archive on ebay or something like that, the only purpose is for research, reference, curiosity and as 'tonezoneonline' said, education. I can't tell you how many times I have had a problem with an amp/design that referencing my schematics helped fix, whether it be switching arrangments, a certain tonal characteristic I just can't seem to nail, fx loop issues or whatever it may be, it really helps to see what the designer/artist did to give me a clue. I don't wanna make this more long winded than it should be, but it sucks to be under attack in a forum that I respect greatly, thats why I'm not taking any of this personally, and reacting to it on that level. I hope in the future, now that I am coming around more often again, I can participate more. (though there are many of you guys that know so much more about this stuff than me, I know when to listen)

[Macguyver]

If you want my schematics.......have them

As a measure of good faith, and to prove that I mean what I say, I'll give away anything you guys want, no trade required, no strings attached, ect. Just reply with your email address and what you want. I will do my best to keep up with requests.

[bob p]

OK, I'll bite. I would like the schematic for Bruce's 5E3 Tone/Vol mod.

<ducks for cover!>


all kidding aside, i use that as an example of why a hobbyist is better off learning how to design a mod rather than just looking over someone's shoulder and trying to copy their work. i'm sure that if anyone here really wanted to learn the concept behind how those mods work, someone like Bruce would gladly help them.

if you're serious about giving stuff away, maybe it would be a good idea not to ask people to take shots in the dark. perhaps you could post a list of what schematics you've got, or maybe you could just take a short cut and post them all on a web page. you could even pass them along to Larry at Schematic Heaven.

just to test the depth of your collection, i'll make a request that probably wouldn't be very easy to fill: 6v6 Bogner Shiva. I'd be pleasantly surprised to see it arrive in my mailbox.

custom_basses AT yahoo DOT com

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

OK, I'll bite. I would like the schematic for Bruce's 5E3 Tone/Vol mod.

<ducks for cover!>

I've never really drawn a schematic for it because it is so simple, but if you really want it that bad, just email me.
I just don't like to see my work plastered all over then Net on other's websites as their own after I'm the one who put all the time and energy into coming up with the mods, sourcing parts, testing and tweaking them.
I've actually sold mod kits to some builders only to have them become their standard build mods after they've changed the value of one or two of the caps and resistors... and sometimes the "caps and resistors" are even my recommendations in the paperwork that comes with the mods!
I don't charge a huge amount of money for these tweaking mod kits because I don't need to and I think a low price discourages my competition from trying to run with it... but you can't hide forever from Net driven, intelectual theivery.

[bob p]

that's exactly why i ducked for cover.

i think that we're essentially talking about the pros and cons of living in the information age. yes, the internet fora and the dial-up BBS that preceded them have made it very easy for people to exchange ideas. that's great for sharing information, but its a real liability as far as intellectual property rights are concerned. because everyone can reap the fruits of someone else's labor in as effortless a fashion as clicking a mouse, they tend to undervalue the work went into creating the information in the first place.

easy access to information causes people to discount the value of that information. when access to information becomes effortless, the value of the information is pushed down about as far as it can go. as a result, everyone who has an idea ends up getting ripped off. regardless of whether or not someone else appropriated their work in the spirit of fair use or as a purposeful attempt to cheat them, the prevailing laissez-faire attitude on the web about giving people credit for their creations has led to the situation where nobody respects intellectual property rights, and everything gets stolen. the worst part is that taking the information has become so easy that people don't even to bother to think about the blood, sweat and tears that might have gone into the design. they just click and its all over.

as an example of this, look at how many novel amp designs have essentially been forced into the public domain. the creators of those amps held their intellectual property cards close to the vest. along came a syndicate of people who pooled their money, bought an amp, and dissected it. at first they shared the information that they had gleaned only among themselves. after a while the information was shared selectively with a few other people, but after enough time passed it eventually ended up on schematic heaven. naturally, the guy who did the original design is pissed that his designs are being shared in the public domain, and eventually his name isn't even associated with them.

i went through this intellectual property stuff in the open source software world. i made a revolutionary contribution to how linux toolkits were built, and it completely changed the way one of the big name linux distributions was manufactured and distributed. they completely changed they way they did things to follow my methods. because linux is open source, i didn't expect to get anything for my efforts. in one respect, i guess that i wasn't disappointed.

what i did do, though, was to build my own distribution that incorporated the developments that i had created. it was built using another open source distribution as the starting platform, and it offered enhanced features that were always a step ahead of the bigger linux distributions. i gave it away for free, and spent my own money to build a server network to host the files online. i also offered CDs for sale to anyone who wanted to support the project. the result? i was chastised in the open source community for trying to profiteer from my unique idea. in reality, i was only trying to make the project support itself so that it didn't constantly drain my wallet. regardless, some people just think that everything is supposed to be free, and someone else's time and effort have no value.

the purpose of this story is to draw an analogy to your situation. you essentially give the idea away for the low cost of the parts in the kit. i essentially gave away the idea, but sold inexpensive parts (a CD). because its easier to transmit a CD over the internet than it is a resistor, people didn't feel the need to buy the CD. after a year, i had 250,000 people using my product, and a total of 30 had bothered to thank me for my efforts in some way. the rest just took everything and the only thing that they offered in return was a request for more features.

the last straw was when someone else pirated my idea, and repackaged it, along with my copyrighted documentation, and placed their name on it. they tried to sell it to large corporations and left me out of the loop. eventually i decided that it was no longer a good idea to spend my time and money on people who didn't appreciate my loss, not to mention people trying to steal my work and then resell it as their own. so i ended the open source project and started coming to ampage again. then quite suddenly the remainder of the 250,000 ungrateful people abruptly acknowledged my work by complaining that i had stopped doing it. i hadn't given them enough and they wanted more.

i guess its the nature of the Net that there will always be parasites. its just hard to care about helping such people as they're sucking your blood.

[mooreamps]

I'd have to agree with Bruce on this one. There are some things I have let go to others to either fix a design flaw or just a general overall easy to do tone fix. But some of my proprietary research, like my power brake, or my pre-amp, no I would not be real happy to see those circuits propagated on the web for all the world to see. It took me many hours of research, and many an hour wacking and hacking in my basement to prototype some of these builds.

Now, having said all that, I do work with people who are genuinely interested in trying my mod's for their own personal use. I just don't want to see my circuits re-appear in some new Carvin or Krankenstien or who-ever amplifier head since these are the folks I'm competeing against.

-g

[bob p]

the sad truth is that you don't have many options. when you design something, its no longer a secret once it leaves your lab. as soon as you make it available to someone else, your design is going to be acquired, reverse-engineered, and appropriated by your competitors. that's the nature of the competitive marketplace. the electronics industry has always been that way. your only options are do place your design in an epoxy black box with the hopes that some engineer with solvent and a brush won't spend the time to attack it, or to get a patent on your invention and enforce it through the courts. the second approach will make you about as popular as Randall Smith.

the other option, of course, is to just get so sick of people stealing your unique ideas that you just stop sharing them altogether. that's great for a hobbyist, but bad for a business.

[Macguyver]

the sad truth is that you don't have many options. when you design something, its no longer a secret once it leaves your lab. as soon as you make it available to someone else, your design is going to be acquired, reverse-engineered, and appropriated by your competitors. that's the nature of the competitive marketplace. the electronics industry has always been that way. your only options are do place your design in an epoxy black box with the hopes that some engineer with solvent and a brush won't spend the time to attack it, or to get a patent on your invention and enforce it through the courts. the second approach will make you about as popular as Randall Smith.

the other option, of course, is to just get so sick of people stealing your unique ideas that you just stop sharing them altogether. that's great for a hobbyist, but bad for a business.

I completly agree with you Bob, one of the risks of going public with a concept/idea/product is that it could be stolen, and no matter what secuity measures are taken, someone with enough motivation can and will bypass your efforts to keep your ideas out of the hands of others. When it comes to guitar amps, my opinion is that the biggest threat to a smaller company or individual with inovative ideas is not your average homebrewer but rather big companies, who have the cash to pay for lawyers who will prolong any small company's copyright claim in court to the point of bankruptcy before they can prove their case. Prime example being Randall Smith using the Soldano preamp circuit verbatim in the Rectifier series, I'm only assuming there was no lawsuit because Mike Soldano couldn't afford the legal battle, though what makes me giggle a bit is how Fender used Randy Smith's patented solidstate/tube rectifier switch in one of their newer amps (can't remember off the top of my head which model it was) without any legal action, Randy Smith knew better than to try and fight the biggest dog on the block.
When it comes to homebrewers cloning amps, which seems like on the surface would translate into lost sales for the company that created the amp in the first place, the fact is that alot of homebrewers became homebrewers because they're cheap! I include myself in this catagory of people who wanted to find their sound but not pay the many, many thousands of dollars it sometimes takes to do, the way I see it, these companies for the most part wouldn't have our buisiness in the first place, cause why let others do for you, what you can do yourself: ) I know that some of these expensive brands are expensive for a reason and for the most part, sound really good, and for a homebrewer to make a clone, the whole project might cost almost as much as the real thing, but probably not sound as good or at the least not sound the same as the real thing, which sort of defeats the whole purpose. This is why I don't bother making clones, besides my ego not letting me get away with it, I have learned that trying to clone something takes as much or more effort to do correctly, and I figure all that extra effort could be best applied to coming up with original ideas/concepts to perhaps in a small way advance the art.

[Amp Kat]

I don't know about you guys but have you all noticed the amount of new amps and builders in the US alone besides the international ? Everyday it seems like someone pops in my shop saying they want to build amps. With that said the competition is getting insane but one good thing is that all of these amps I'm seeing are basically the same and many one trick ponies. So if you do have some unique designs and Gary maybe yours is one ?, I'd seal it but then what are you going to do if a builder buys your amp and sends the info over the net. Remember our buddy who used to pot and gook his mods well it's insane if you really have something you don't want others cloning on your hard work but man it's getting crazy out there.

[mooreamps]

One of my design goals was to bring up my own circuits, and not do just another clone of an existing layout. As such, I've never released any of my prints into the public domain, and I've been flamed by others for not doing so. In this respect, I choose only to work in individuals whom I know.

-g

[kg]

many of my iterations of preamp design are available on my website, and have been since i scanned them in and posted them up years ago.

i can assure you that there are some things in there that you'll never find on any other production preamp circuit.

that said, i find that the idea of protecting proprietery intellectual property runs counter to furtherment of the community as a whole. to think that ANYTHING is new under the sun is foolhardy. by sharing ideas and concepts everyone wins. it all comes back around in the end.

[Amp Kat]

many of my iterations of preamp design are available on my website, and have been since i scanned them in and posted them up years ago.

i can assure you that there are some things in there that you'll never find on any other production preamp circuit.

I've seen it and actually studied it a bit and I agree kg that is a pretty wicked topology with the cascodes and the infamous 6N1P's. It has changed a bit since then in the short amount of time. But your right I haven't seen anything like it anywhere. Glad to see you back btw