Fender 5E3 Output Transformer Winding Spec

[Chuck H]

Say, are you familiar with and able to articulate the tonal differences between Cotton, PVC, and Teflon insulated wire? That is one of the finer things I have yet to study.

I hope this is a jest!?! It's sort of like asking if coffee tastes different from a red mug than it does from a blue mug.

Thinking a little bit more about it, perhaps I erred or simply spoke foolishly when I said "improve" upon the iconic classics. for such a statement can be politically offensive to some, because by achieving iconic status particualar amps become evolutionarily fixed and unimprovable. Maybe it would be better to say something like, become knowledgeable enough to build iconically influenced amps with tone good enough that people will buy them.

If selling is your goal then I would say just clone a classic as close as humanly possible. The buying demographic will be wowed. Since the difference between good and great is so subject to individual tastes I don't see how a one size fits all tone is even possible. And, IMHO, the people that will actually spend $$$ on an expensive amp are either pro's or wanna be's. The wanna be's (and some pro's) wouldn't know better tone if it bit them in the ear. More likely they want an amp as close to original as possible because of the mojo that surrounds it. Likely bypassing any amp that is said to be an "improved" design for fear that it won't offer the same nuance. Again, IMHE, the actual buying demographic is virtually tone deaf. They pay out the nose for special amps (that aren't any better sounding than cheaper amps) because they can't get the gear they have (probably some other expensive amp) to sound good because they either can't really play or don't know how to use the gear to it's best advantage. So, sell original if you can. Or make your improvements for your own satisfaction and at least say that "original" is what you are selling. Any other move is shooting your own foot.

[FredB]

If selling is your goal then I would say just clone a classic as close as humanly possible. The buying demographic will be wowed. Since the difference between good and great is so subject to individual tastes I don't see how a one size fits all tone is even possible. And, IMHO, the people that will actually spend $$$ on an expensive amp are either pro's or wanna be's. The wanna be's (and some pro's) wouldn't know better tone if it bit them in the ear. More likely they want an amp as close to original as possible because of the mojo that surrounds it. Likely bypassing any amp that is said to be an "improved" design for fear that it won't offer the same nuance. Again, IMHE, the actual buying demographic is virtually tone deaf. They pay out the nose for special amps (that aren't any better sounding than cheaper amps) because they can't get the gear they have (probably some other expensive amp) to sound good because they either can't really play or don't know how to use the gear to it's best advantage. So, sell original if you can. Or make your improvements for your own satisfaction and at least say that "original" is what you are selling. Any other move is shooting your own foot.

That sounds like good advice.

I only have only two tweaks I make to the basic 5E3. One of them is an FX loop. I have to have my digital delay. Even that's optional really for it can be used on front of the amp, although I prefer adding delay after distortion.

Actually thinking about now, the distortion in the 5E3 is generated in the booster stage, the cathodyne, and the power tubes. Putting an FX loop in before the booster stage will result in it missing all the distortion anyway.

The other tweak is a bass control, which is other wise sonically transparent in the circuit. I may just keep that one. I have already dropped the idea of turning the second channel into a booster stage, and developed a clear booster pedal just for this project.

Ha. it looks like the project is going to end up mostly original anyway.

Cheers,

fred

[Enzo]

Fred, I wasn't kidding about thousands, though perhaps I meant something different from what you might have thought I meant.

The 5E3 has 40-50 parts in it. Each of those has tolerances, and in the day of Leo, those resistors were 20%, the caps even worse. It was common to audition several of a model amp to select the one we thought sounded best. They did sound different. Today's amps are much more consistent. So for each resistor we have to conside the effect if the value is high, and if it is low. Then we have to sonsider if there are or are not any variation due to type, say carbon film versus metal film versus carbon comp. 1/2 watt versus 1 watt or 2 watt. Same with caps, with really wide ranging value spreads, the tonal shape of an amp can vary a lot just from cap values. Now there are places in the amps were not only are there caps and resistors varying, but they also work together, affecting freq response. SO that is a double dose there. certainly tube type selection and tube brand selection is a factor. And the wires. Lead dress is a small word, but a large factor. The stability and tone of an amp is changed by small movements of wires, and if one wire is placed HERE, that affects how some other wire THERE reacts. Move wire A and wire B no longer acts the same in the place it was. Transformers. PTs can vary in voltage, one with heavier wires might sag less, OTs have freq responses. Speakers, many factors there. Not to mention cab dimensions and volume and how much of the rear is closed off or open. Power supply voltages, for any given B+ on the outputs, how does the screen voltage affect that, and what does each increment of B+ change at the lower nodes do to performance. Higher PI voltage AND higher screen voltage versus lower PI and higher screens or higher PI and lower screens. And decoupling, more? less? Will "undesirable" interaction result in a desirable tone anyway? Stiff rectifier? Saggy rectifier? Choke or not? Stiff first filter and loose downstream? Or loose first filter and tight downstream? And on and on.

[FredB]

Fred, I wasn't kidding about thousands, though perhaps I meant something different from what you might have thought I meant.

The 5E3 has 40-50 parts in it. Each of those has tolerances, and in the day of Leo, those resistors were 20%, the caps even worse. It was common to audition several of a model amp to select the one we thought sounded best. They did sound different. Today's amps are much more consistent. So for each resistor we have to conside the effect if the value is high, and if it is low. Then we have to sonsider if there are or are not any variation due to type, say carbon film versus metal film versus carbon comp. 1/2 watt versus 1 watt or 2 watt. Same with caps, with really wide ranging value spreads, the tonal shape of an amp can vary a lot just from cap values. Now there are places in the amps were not only are there caps and resistors varying, but they also work together, affecting freq response. SO that is a double dose there. certainly tube type selection and tube brand selection is a factor. And the wires. Lead dress is a small word, but a large factor. The stability and tone of an amp is changed by small movements of wires, and if one wire is placed HERE, that affects how some other wire THERE reacts. Move wire A and wire B no longer acts the same in the place it was. Transformers. PTs can vary in voltage, one with heavier wires might sag less, OTs have freq responses. Speakers, many factors there. Not to mention cab dimensions and volume and how much of the rear is closed off or open. Power supply voltages, for any given B+ on the outputs, how does the screen voltage affect that, and what does each increment of B+ change at the lower nodes do to performance. Higher PI voltage AND higher screen voltage versus lower PI and higher screens or higher PI and lower screens. And decoupling, more? less? Will "undesirable" interaction result in a desirable tone anyway? Stiff rectifier? Saggy rectifier? Choke or not? Stiff first filter and loose downstream? Or loose first filter and tight downstream? And on and on.

Yes, and the permutations of all that is beyond computation. However, the way you put makes it sound like it's beyond one's ability to manage.

Anyway, I see you've been around here for a while. I could use a perspective on my Uni-Fuzz thread. I have a Uni-Fuzz in for repair that needs a new relay. I also noticed it has some 120Hz buzzing in its output signal. I checked the filter caps, and they have 0.25 ohms ESR, however the 10u coupling caps in the rest of the circuit range from 8 to 12 ohms ESR. Some new Nichicon 10u caps I have are all 0.5 ohms ESR. In the Uni-Fuzz the 10u caps are coupling only, and the the two main filter caps are 220u.

What I am wondering is if the 120Hz buzz in a grounding issue or a filtering issue. I also have a Mutron Phasor II in for repair and it has basically the same two conductor power cord and transformer setup, although it has zero 120Hz buzz in the output. I checked the power rail of the Uni-Fuzz with my scope and saw zero 120Hz ripple and since the filter caps seem to be good, I'm tending to think it's a grounding issue.

[Enzo]

No, not beyond one's ability to manage, just pointing out that there is no one thing to concentrate on. Yes, permutations galore. We might like a 100k plate load at 250v, but the 220k sounds better at 300v. Or whatever.

I guess my message would be this: Yes please DO learn all you can about transformers, but always keep it in perspective. When I train techs I like to preach it isn't the parts, it's the circuit, meaning don;t ask me "which resistor makes the tone good."


I'll go look at your other thread, let us not bring it to this one.

[FredB]

Do you train MI tech specifically or electronics techs in general?

[Enzo]

I USED to train techs in various industries, mainly for field service. MY MI trainees have been largely one on one for OJT.