Laney Lionheart - brightess issue

[andrius]

I don't completely understand Laney Lionheart amp (particularly, L5T version). To my ears it sounds too dark if the Tone is lower than approx. 9.5, but sometimes it gets too harsh if it's at the maximum. When I play using a distortion pedal through a Clean channel, with some pedals it still doesn't sound as bright as I'd expect (the pedal sounds very muffled, even if I increase the pedal's tone - it sounds kinda bright, but I feel something is missing from the sound), but some other pedals sound too harsh with the Brigthness on, but when I switch the brightness off, I have to increase the Tone (on the amp) to 10, otherwise it's kinda muffled. I tried sending the distortion pedal straight to the FX loop input, which bypasses the amp's preamp, and it's the same situation - pretty dark.
So I wonder why is it so:
* is it that the amp is just dark?
* is it the speaker, which is G12H55 (which is supposedly originally designed as a bass speaker, but used for guitar amps)?
* or is it that the amp needs to be played loudly to become brighter? I play it in my appartment, so I don't pay loud.

[soundguruman]

I don't completely understand Laney Lionheart amp (particularly, L5T version). To my ears it sounds too dark if the Tone is lower than approx. 9.5, but sometimes it gets too harsh if it's at the maximum. When I play using a distortion pedal through a Clean channel, with some pedals it still doesn't sound as bright as I'd expect (the pedal sounds very muffled, even if I increase the pedal's tone - it sounds kinda bright, but I feel something is missing from the sound), but some other pedals sound too harsh with the Brigthness on, but when I switch the brightness off, I have to increase the Tone (on the amp) to 10, otherwise it's kinda muffled. I tried sending the distortion pedal straight to the FX loop input, which bypasses the amp's preamp, and it's the same situation - pretty dark.
So I wonder why is it so:
* is it that the amp is just dark?
* is it the speaker, which is G12H55 (which is supposedly originally designed as a bass speaker, but used for guitar amps)?
* or is it that the amp needs to be played loudly to become brighter? I play it in my appartment, so I don't pay loud.

See, you are using a distortion pedal because the amp does not sound the way you need it to sound.
Start with an amp that sounds good without a distortion pedal.
If you need a pedal to make it sound right, then start over, with another amp.
When you find an amp that has the good sound without the pedals, then you will finally be happy.

Tube amps give you the sound that distortion pedals can only imitate. You just need to find the right one.

[andrius]

See, you are using a distortion pedal because the amp does not sound the way you need it to sound.
Start with an amp that sounds good without a distortion pedal.
If you need a pedal to make it sound right, then start over, with another amp.
When you find an amp that has the good sound without the pedals, then you will finally be happy.

Tube amps give you the sound that distortion pedals can only imitate. You just need to find the right one.

The thing is, I have this amp, it was pretty expensive and I can't afford to buy a new amp (I wouldn't be able to sell this one). In my country where I live, the market is very small, I'd say the market is dead, the selection of amps is very small, and since I play in my appartment only, that means I need a low watt amp === so I practically have no choice. I could buy an amp off the net, but I can't test it before the purchase (and it's too expensive if I return it), so buying a new amp is not an option for me. I understand that a distortion pedal is not as good as a real amp, but being unable to play at loud volumes I kind of don't have an other choice.

The drive channel of this amp kind of sounds right to me, especially if I use a TS9 which tightens up the bottom end, but sometimes I feel as if I'm unable to get the right balance of brightess, bass and middles.
The Clean channels sounds right too - I wouldn't say it's too dark (probably because that's how I like the clean sound), but the thing is, I don't really play that much clean, and when I use a distoriton pedal through the clean channel, it's too dark.

Sometimes this amp sounds good to me, but sometimes not. I just want to know if this amp is really dark or is it something else that I don't understand about it.

[andrius]

In addition, I want to add that when I tried DS-1, it sounded too bright with the brightness switch on, and sounded right with the brightness off. So I don't get it why is it that sometimes it's too dark, sometimes it's good, depending on a pedal. And I believe that all those pedals were ordinary pedals that aren't too dark or too bright on other amps; at least not to the extremes that they are with my amp...

[soundguruman]

In addition, I want to add that when I tried DS-1, it sounded too bright with the brightness switch on, and sounded right with the brightness off. So I don't get it why is it that sometimes it's too dark, sometimes it's good, depending on a pedal. And I believe that all those pedals were ordinary pedals that aren't too dark or too bright on other amps; at least not to the extremes that they are with my amp...

The fact that it's dark, depending on the pedal, IS the pedal. Not the amp.
And to fill in some missing information:
The pedal is deliberately designed to kill the high frequencies. It's intentional.
The reasons:
A. Solid state, high gain, battery powered circuits have a lot of noise and hiss. The high frequency is intentionally rolled off by design, so you will not hear all the HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
B. When high frequencies are boosted, this causes squealing feedback, microphonics ringing, from the pickup. It's like holding a microphone in front of a PA speaker. The pedal is intentionally designed to kill the high frequencies, to prevent this microphonic ringing and feedback.

Although you CAN modify the pedal, to pass high frequencies, you will also be increasing the noise, hiss, and squealing feedback.

It comes down to what type of pickup. Some are much more microphonic than others.
It comes down to which effects pedal. How much high frequencies did the designer / builder attenuate, to prevent noise, hiss, and microphonics?

[andrius]

Thanks. But since I play at volume set to 1-2 (very low), could this be the cause of the amp sounding not as good as it could?
Should I better use an attenuator to let the amp work harder? Its internal speaker is connected with a jack, like a cabinet, so it doesn't have to be soldered - so what kind of an attenuator should I use?

[jazbo8]

Yes, when the volume pot is turned way down, you end up with a very large grid resistor, which will attenuate the high frequency, plus all the good harmonics do not show up until you get the drive levels higher across the board. So try and vary your gain and volume control settings and give the amp a chance to shine. Unfortunately, the amp does not have a master control, so balancing may be a bit harder to achieve. Do you use the tone knob (not TMB) much, if not, you can try and make it into a master control (way cheaper than buying a attenuator)...

[andrius]

I'm sorry, I don't completely understand. Could you please tell me what is a TMB? And what do you mean by "master control" in "the amp doesn't have the Master control?" Do you mean master volume control?
If so, do you mean that I could add a master volume control knob and that way make the amp's tubes work hard by setting, say, the Drive channel to the maximum volume, but lowering the output volume with the added master volume? If yes, then how can this be done? I always thought people use attenuators, because there is no other way. I read that attenuators are not always safe. So if a master volume control would be more safe, I don't mind modifying the amp.

[jazbo8]

I'm sorry, I don't completely understand. Could you please tell me what is a TMB? And what do you mean by "master control" in "the amp doesn't have the Master control?" Do you mean master volume control?
If so, do you mean that I could add a master volume control knob and that way make the amp's tubes work hard by setting, say, the Drive channel to the maximum volume, but lowering the output volume with the added master volume? If yes, then how can this be done? I always thought people use attenuators, because there is no other way. I read that attenuators are not always safe. So if a master volume control would be more safe, I don't mind modifying the amp.

TMB refers to Treble, Mid and Bass - the tonestack (left box in the pic). The "Tone" control (right box in the pic) refers to VR8 which sits right before the power tube. If you do not use it much, it could be re-wired along with R43 to form the "Master Volume Control" which the amp does not have now. It is perfectly safe. The only thing is working with PCB and "SM" which I assume to be surface mount component can be a pain if you do not know what you are doing...

[nickb]

The wort case high frequency loss due to the drive control happens when it is roughly half way, rather than at the ends. If that's where you have it then it's not going to help. You could vary the volume on your pedal (if is has a control) and/or use low vs high inputs so that you can turn the drive away from the middle position.

Failing that the only way forward is to start modifying. I would start by changing the C2 10nF coupling capacitor from the first stage to something smaller. Right now it letting just about everything through. You could try going to as little as 1nF but only if you are confident in your abilities.