Sound differences between cap brands? Test results?

[shocki]

I know this has already been discussed to death

But I would like to know if some of guys actually did some tests. Like switchable caps brands or recordings before and after a complete cap change.
I friend of mine tested different brands at the first gain stage cap. (don't know exactly which one they tested). They did a blindfold shootout. Nobody was able to hear the difference. But this is just one position of course. They did not switch caps all at the same time.

Here is something similar with very interesting results.
Atlantic Quality Design, Inc., The Truth about Tone Capacitors

I really don't trust people when they say the amp sounds so much better after changing to a certain cap brand. There is just so much psychoacoustics envolved. I experienced this many times. I did before and after recordings with different pickups. When changing to a certain "hyped" brand I though "Wow that sounds so much better". But when listening to the recordings later I know I was not right. I wanted them to sound better so they sounded better

[Alex/Tubewonder]

Well, you basically answered your question. The AQD test report should be mandatory reading.

[exclamationmark]

I think the simplest way would be to re-amp a guitar recording through an amp with switchable capacitors that have been matched somewhat closely in value and record the result. Tests where someone plays the guitar live and tries to discern a difference IMO aren't very repeatable. In reality it's probably your playing that has changed in response to expecting a difference. You can even run the recorded audio back through analysis programs to see if there is indeed a difference. If I can be bothered I might rig up a test rig one of these days. From personal experience I haven't really noticed any difference, so it hasn't even warranted a proper test rig.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

WTF?
right from this article....
"A common value for a tone capacitor in guitars is 0.022 microfarads, or 0.022uF as an abbreviation. A larger value that rolls off high frequencies to a greater degree is 0.1uF."
So much for the writer understanding facts and science....

[daz]

I really don't trust people when they say the amp sounds so much better after changing to a certain cap brand. There is just so much psychoacoustics envolved. I experienced this many times. I did before and after recordings with different pickups. When changing to a certain "hyped" brand I though "Wow that sounds so much better". But when listening to the recordings later I know I was not right. I wanted them to sound better so they sounded better

Absolutely true. However, when you read people's accounts of things like this it's the person's actual experience that matters, and usually you don't know what exactly that is. For example, someone might try a few sozos in thier amp and thats the extent of thier opinion. Surely thats not remotely enough to know whether he is experiencing placebo effect or reality. then you have the other end of the spectrum, and when it comes to sozos and mallory that would be me. I swapped these two back and fourth over a period of probably 2 years dozens of times ! To my ear the differnce is lead pipe upside the head obvious. However, thats in the amp i tried them in so you could try them in a different amp and have a completely different experience even if your idea of great tone is spot on like mine. And by the way, i have said often that placebo effect is something that you have to learn to recognize and understand and be aware of every moment that you tweak in order to avoid it. Plus be willing to swap back and fourth many times till it becomes obvious what the difference is. Putting it on a switch is even better. Also consider that if you hear a positive difference with one brand but not the other, that says a lot about wheher or not you are experiencing placebo effect. If you were you'd think all were good or all were bad, but not some good some bad.

That said, i can only speak to the difference between sozo mustards, both vintage and standard, and mallory. I finally decided i prefer mallory. Sozos seem to add harmonic complexity to a degree, but they also don't sound as clear and articulate. They tend to muddy up the tone in a less than obvious way that becomes obvious after a lot of back and fourth. One thing i noticed is that even when i was thinking i liked mallory, i had them everywhere but in the tone stack because i tried them there time after time but the mallories just always sounded better in that position for some reason.

[Alex/Tubewonder]

Strange, but 0.022uF is what I see on almost every guitar schematic and everything up to 0.1uF and down to 0.002uF on a few. So what gives?

[Alex/Tubewonder]

I can't explain it in any rational way, but my car runs better and feels a lot more responsive after each time I clean its interior. Any ideas

[km6xz]

The power of suggestion is a salesman's best friend.
Inserting a player into a sound test is the least reliable method I can think of to determine differences in sound character but that is the usually way guitar amps are checked. I have found that the same people who claim dramatic differences are particularly susceptible to suggestion, even their own. But when more variables are limited and tests become more controlled they have a hard time beating random picks when selecting the better one. If a random change is made in re-amped samples, where they are asked to mark the better sounding test sample, say in 50 points in a passage, with a button to mark the better one, random guesses without even hearing the passage turns out to be just as accurate. When the unmodified circuit is randomly switched, and levels are balanced, the old one and the new super part get picked about equally.
I have do so many of those test in my studio under controlled conditions for caps, cables(speaker wires that are called "interconnects of they are priced over $600 a meter). The only place where responses seem to trend towards identifying a difference is guitar cables with passive pickups and very hi-z imput amps. That is expected however due to the effect of the cable capacitance on the resonate frequency of the guitar tone circuits.
A guitarist saying one sounds SO much better when he himself is in the feedback loop of playing and hearing is deluding himself because any changes in playing pressure, acceleration, ear position in the acoustic space, SPL and playing style all dramatically change the sound as perceived and measured, orders of magnitude of more significance than what any functioning cap could. Suddenly, by re-amping the player becomes much less sure of picking out differences consistently, picking the modified one less and less often.
But thinking it makes a big difference makes people spend a great deal of money while not generating a penny more in income as a player. Taking the same money and hiring an instructor for areas he is weakest, for a few hours would have far more positive impact on the response of audiences.
Working with some of the best, it always tickled me how less they were concerned with "tone" than their own personal playing. Searching for magic fairy dust filled tubes, wire or caps to change all, is more of a well-heeled amateur's thing. The reason they are not getting the contract or tour has nothing to do with the nuances of their equipment's sound.

[Justin Thomas]

Hey Bruce,

I was wondering about that. I'm not getting into the whole "what cap is better," I like Mallorys cuz they fit nicely in Fenders) but my understanding is that a larger value cap PASSES more LOWS, not rolls off highs. The highs stay the same but SEEM less, due to the extra low-ends being passed, right? I don't want to get into all the math cuz I didn't do too well there, but I have seen the frequency graphs and can interpret them... but isn't part of the reason my Spitfire clone was so bright was because that first .0022 cap blocked a lot of lows from my guitar right off the bat? Increasing that value didn't roll off highs; it passed the lows. Is this right, in a general way?

Justin

[stormbringer]

George at Metroamp did a comparison of various caps:
MetroAmp.com Forum ? View topic - Signal cap comparison clips Mallory, Sozo, mustard

[shocki]

Hey Bruce,

I was wondering about that. I'm not getting into the whole "what cap is better," I like Mallorys cuz they fit nicely in Fenders) but my understanding is that a larger value cap PASSES more LOWS, not rolls off highs. The highs stay the same but SEEM less, due to the extra low-ends being passed, right? I don't want to get into all the math cuz I didn't do too well there, but I have seen the frequency graphs and can interpret them... but isn't part of the reason my Spitfire clone was so bright was because that first .0022 cap blocked a lot of lows from my guitar right off the bat? Increasing that value didn't roll off highs; it passed the lows. Is this right, in a general way?

Justin

Hey Justin. Play around with this one and you will unterstand.
rc_simple_filter [Electron Coaxing Techniques & Notes]

Basicly you have low pass and high pass filters. Just the arrangment of R and C is different. The formula for calculating the cutoff frequency is the same. So what you had was a high pass filter. The circuit in the guitar is a low pass filter.
(I am just getting into this myself. So I hope everything I described is correct. )

[shocki]

One more thing about psychoacoustics. I went to a (boutique) guitar shop some time Some people were there checking out guitars and one customer bought a guitar after he tried out a bunch. The owner told me "I knew he was going to buy that guitar. It was the first one he tried". He told me that the ear gets accustomed to a certain guitar sound and most people get back to the first thing they tried.

Do an experiment. Take a tele. Play it for 5 minutes. Then switch to a Les Paul. You will say to yourself "man this Lespaul is so muddy sounding". Switch back to the Tele 5 minutes later and you will see "man this guitar is so harsh sound". So everything is relative !

George at Metroamp did a comparison of various caps:
MetroAmp.com Forum ? View topic - Signal cap comparison clips Mallory, Sozo, mustard

Wow this is really cool. I listened to this one on highend headphones. Except for the NOS preamp tubes the differences to me is non existant or so small that it does not really matter. A change of guitar string brand or pick brand will produce a way bigger effect than this.

[stormbringer]

Wow this is really cool. I listened to this one on highend headphones. Except for the NOS preamp tubes the differences to me is non existant or so small that it does not really matter. A change of guitar string brand or pick brand will produce a way bigger effect than this.

I agree. Some of the folks who posted in that thread claimed to hear differences between the Mallory and Sozos, but I heard no such difference.

[shocki]

I agree. Some of the folks who posted in that thread claimed to hear differences between the Mallory and Sozos, but I heard no such difference.

As soon as you admit it people will say "man you have bad ears". So nobody will admit it HA HA...

[daz]

As soon as you admit it people will say "man you have bad ears". So nobody will admit it HA HA...

Bogner uses sozos. I've been to thier shop and talked to them about them and they are adamant about the tonal qulaities they impart. Of course those guys obviously are fooling themselve like i am.

You guys can insult me all you want, but i know what i hear especially after endless swapping. And it's not nearly as subtle as it sounds to you. Ever think YOUR ears aren't very good? not that thats a bad thing...i wish mine were as clueless as yours must be. Be a lot easier and cheaper.