Sound differences between cap brands? Test results?

[daz]

So Daz, how did you do on identifying the different caps in those sound clips from the Metro Amps forum? You should have heard those "lead pipe upside the head" differences.

Edit: Doh! I just listened to the track and he ruins the test by telling you which caps are which. I'm going to edit the voiceover out and get back to you.

Where did you get the notion i listened to those? I didn't. First of all, i don't listen to or put ANY stock whatsoever in clips in the vast majority of cases, certainly not caps ! What can seem subtle and not even audible or FEELABLE in a clip may be obvious to you if YOU are playing the rig. We're talking subtle things here. Why don't people get that subtle things which are impossible to hear in a clip CAN be quite obvious if YOU are the one playing especially if it's mostly a feel thing more than tone? Do you guys even spend time with this kind of thing at all?! Becuse some here talk as tho they can't hear things that i find rather obvious even tho i always consider placebo effect in everything i dod and try various methods like A/B switching and the ABOVE POST i wrote a minute b4 i saw your reply.

There are things i can easily hear when *i am playing*, and it's *my rig* which if recorded for me to listen to i couldn't tell the difference with a gun to my head. If anyone doesn't get that, then i'm sorry if this sounds offensive but you have no credible opinion to donate on this subject because thats rudimentary knowledge. Beat me up, i don't care. But the fact is i've been playing since about 1970 and i experimented on my first guitar and amp and pedals and you name it, and it never stopped. I spent 25 years gigging and every gig was yet another experiment for some piece of gear for me. You can try and tell me what i can or can't hear all you want but you don't know me, you don't know what i can and can't hear, and you are assigning YOUR hearing abilities to me. I'M NOT YOU ! There are some who cannot hear the difference between a maple and rosewood fingerboard and will flame you for suggesting you do ! And again....FEEL, DYNAMICS !!!!! Show me those in a clip please !!!!!!!!!!!!

[stormbringer]

I have a question for those of you with better ears - the higher-gain clip from the cap comparison has a distinct overtone to each note. Is this the second harmonic?

[guitician]

Those Metro clips used 44.1K 16 bit. If he had used 24 bit, 96k or 192K maybe the "subtleties" would have been apparent, but only to people listening with revealing playback equipment. But what's the point? Go ahead and build with whatever...it's all good.

[kleuck]

True that 44/16 is not enough, i did not compare caps this way, but i made some videos of amps etc, and there's a very noticeable difference between the real thing (at least the original video) and the clip on YT when you are not playing the clip at least in 720p/HD. And we are talking of subtle things. I am with Daz when it comes to the player's feeling, we can be fooled with SS amp with great "tube tone" on YT, but no when playing them, because the main difference is in Dynamic.

[Steve Conner]

Well, you're right about YouTube at least. They use a pretty aggressive lossy codec that mangles your audio beyond recognition.

I also agree that different amp circuits "feel" different to play due to differences in the dynamics. I've made some circuits that feel good and others that feel horrible.

However, I specifically disagree that changing capacitors out for other capacitors of the same values would change the feel of an amp circuit. Feel comes from the non-linear characteristics of the tubes, how they react when hit with signals of different levels. It is a pretty subtle effect, hard to model with solid-state circuits or digital code. The time constants of the capacitors and grid leak resistors are involved in it, but the crucial point I'm trying to make is that the time constant depends only on the capacitor's value, not the details of its construction.

I also think 44/16 is a good compromise between fidelity and file size in this case. 24/96 would be nicer, but it's not much of a test if the files are so big that nobody can be bothered downloading them.

[daz]

we can be fooled with SS amp with great "tube tone" on YT, but no when playing them, because the main difference is in Dynamic.

Exactly. I've had some amazing sounding ss amps only to take them to a gig and have them sound like a whole different and lousy amp. Aspen Pittman said it years ago...."it's not that SS amps can't sound good, it's that they don't feel good". I'm paraphrasing slightly, but never the less a statement that should be in the greatest quotes of all time, yet this fact is ignored in debates like this. It's like trying to evaluate the handling characteristic of a certain tire by testing them on a smart car.

Heres a experience i'll never forget and was my first introduction into how important feel is. Many years ago i bought a rockman headphone amp. The original one. I noticed i could play better then i usually do when i used it, but i wrote that off as just having a good day playing wise. Then i tried something that shocked me. I was playing it at home and i then put the rockman down and played thru my marshall. My playing went right down the tubes like i just lost 10 years off my playing experience. I put the rockman back on and i was gary moore again. The stereo effect, the sustain, that real fluid mid peak, it all made playing so easy i could read a book and play like gary. Plug into the marshall and in the 5 seconds it took to switch i was dave davies in 1965 playing that impeccable solo in really got me.

That said, it only takes very subtle things to influence your playing, nothing as radical as the rockman. But often things you can't even hear will do it. I also learned this lesson while gigging with amps i felt sounded better than anything i ever owned only to sell them because my marshall just FELT right and cut right, where as that "amazing" sounding amp made me dave davies in 1965 again. (sorry dave, but back them, really...)

[daz]

However, I specifically disagree that changing capacitors out for other capacitors of the same values would change the feel of an amp circuit.

Have you ever put all mallories in an amp, played it like that for a long time, them put sozo vintage in and did the same, then switch back and fourth a few times? I have, and feel was no only quite obvious but it was the main difference. The amp was also quite a bit darker and when i went back to mallories i had to change some things to tone down the brightness. That doesn't happen when placebo effect is the reason for the change.

[guitician]

That's funny because this little SS amp I play all the time has more "feel" and "dynamics" then my Champ or JTM45. It's just that those tube amps can't distort as well as the little SS amp at the volume I practice at. Now, If I were to use the little SS amp into a DI box/Mixer PA it would not be the same way at all.

[daz]

We generalized when we talk about this like this of course. You have to.....there are exceptions to every rule and also people who have different tastes than most and any number of possibilities. BB king used SS amps live for a long time and probably still does. Holdsworth too, and i'm sure many more. But they are by far the exception not the rule.

[Steve Conner]

Have you ever put all mallories in an amp, played it like that for a long time, them put sozo vintage in and did the same, then switch back and fourth a few times?

No I haven't, any more than I would go out in the desert and eat a rock to see if it was edible. In my world it is impossible for different brands of caps to sound different, so why would I even do the experiment?

I argue that you are hearing things that aren't there, because of placebo effect. You argue that I'm ignoring things that are there, because of a narrow scientific world view. But my world view happens to fit every other experiment I've ever done with capacitors.

I'm going to go tonight and convert the Metro Amps test file to an ABX test. I'll cut out the amp clips into separate files and challenge you all to identify them using the original file as a reference. I won't enter into discussions about capacitor sound with anyone who didn't get a statistically significant result on this test.

[daz]

Well, there ya go. Experience vs none. I'll just leave it at that, but it speaks volumes.

[guitician]

They're relatively clean players too, I play 12000 series Marshall dimed tones with SS....

[daz]

They're relatively clean players too, I play 12000 series Marshall dimed tones with SS....

Come to think of it, i DID have a marshall SS that was pretty darn good and i used it in the band when we played this small low vol bar. It was one of those 80's marshall SS in the JCM line. Sounded AND felt good. Didn't have as good a feel as a great tube amp, but perfectly usable where other SS amps never seemed to be. From what u r saying tho sounds like you are a metal player. I play classic rock to soft rock and everything in between with heavy being VH or such. So i require very dynamic tone and feel. With metal most of that goes out the window so you can use much different gear and be fine.

[printer2]

So what could be changing the 'feel' of the amp with the capacitor change? You would think either the circuit is more or less linear, namely a difference in gain that could be tested for. Is the capacitor dielectric being compressed by the volume of the speaker which causes more ringing, basically positive feedback making the amp sound more alive and dynamic. Is the different capacitor distorting the signal or causing the tube to distort the signal? A spectrum analyzer should be able to measure the difference. Surely if it can be heard (felt) it can be measured.

[daz]

F if i know. I'm no tech and i don't subscribe to electronic testing as being proof of changes we can detect with ears or feel or lack thereof. If you built an amp using that criteria your amps would play second fiddle to crate SS amps.....the old models. There IS no absolute proof either way except to YOU and your ears. But you DO have to understand the pitfalls of placebo effect and know how it works and how to avoid it. That's an art within itself, and w/o understanding it and experiencing it till you know it like the back of your hand, you WILL be what i'm being accused of.