Ok gurus, answer me this

[Steve Conner]

That's weird. Do you have some different length cables that you could try, to see if the muddiness gets better with a shorter cable?

If it does, you might want to do something really unclean like installing a buffer in your guitar.

[Chuck H]

I was about to suggest the same thing. A preamp should fix the issue neatly. I still can't help thinking that something is hinky though.

Daz, have you tried lifting the tone cap so it's out of the circuit? If that stops the problem there may be a miswire in there that has been overlooked.

[daz]

I was about to suggest the same thing. A preamp should fix the issue neatly. I still can't help thinking that something is hinky though.

Daz, have you tried lifting the tone cap so it's out of the circuit? If that stops the problem there may be a miswire in there that has been overlooked.

I don't have tone caps in any of my guitars. And miswire....man, i've rewired this thing so many times ....Chuck, you know me better than to assume i haven;'t worn out a soldering station on this guitar alone. I know it like the back of my hand, and just the fact i've had the pickups out and apart numerous times and rewired them many times including taking the cabling off them completely and taking them down to seperate coils.

As to cable length, that wouldn't tell me if the very small diameter cabling in the guitar is causing a capacitance issue because the conductor and shield are much closer than in a guitar cable. So i wasn't assuming 8" more cable than the guitar cable could possibly be noticeable, but maybe the thinness factor. So using a longer guitar cable won't tell me if that could be causing it. I'm just tired of tering this guitar apart, but i guess i may be doing that this weekend just for process of elimination and peace of mind.

[big_teee]

I don't have tone caps in any of my guitars. And miswire....man, i've rewired this thing so many times ....Chuck, you know me better than to assume i haven;'t worn out a soldering station on this guitar alone. I know it like the back of my hand, and just the fact i've had the pickups out and apart numerous times and rewired them many times including taking the cabling off them completely and taking them down to seperate coils.

As to cable length, that wouldn't tell me if the very small diameter cabling in the guitar is causing a capacitance issue because the conductor and shield are much closer than in a guitar cable. So i wasn't assuming 8" more cable than the guitar cable could possibly be noticeable, but maybe the thinness factor. So using a longer guitar cable won't tell me if that could be causing it. I'm just tired of tering this guitar apart, but i guess i may be doing that this weekend just for process of elimination and peace of mind.

You had the pickup apart?
Have you rewound the coils?
What does each coil measure in DCR?

[daz]

Yes. I actually added some windings to one of the pickups, putting 1k more wire on each coil but it hurt the tone a bit. Not real obvious, but i later removed the extra winds and it sounded a bit better. I did that to get the bridge p/u's output to match the neck, but this guitar's acoustic output is so hot at the neck that pickup will over power anything even tho it's under 8k. It's just brutal. And it IS the neck position and not the pup because i've swapped the neck and bridge before thinking they are tonally so different, but they aren't. The coils are around 4k each.

But i know what you are trying to figure out....have i done anything to cause this. But as i said it's always been like this even with the stock pickups untouched. If it hadn't i probably never would have messed with them in the first place.

[big_teee]

Yes. I actually added some windings to one of the pickups, putting 1k more wire on each coil but it hurt the tone a bit. Not real obvious, but i later removed the extra winds and it sounded a bit better. I did that to get the bridge p/u's output to match the neck, but this guitar's acoustic output is so hot at the neck that pickup will over power anything even tho it's under 8k. It's just brutal. And it IS the neck position and not the pup because i've swapped the neck and bridge before thinking they are tonally so different, but they aren't. The coils are around 4k each.

But i know what you are trying to figure out....have i done anything to cause this. But as i said it's always been like this even with the stock pickups untouched. If it hadn't i probably never would have messed with them in the first place.

Don't know what kind of coils are in the wide range?
But for regular humbuckers 8k at the neck is generally too hot, and would be muddy in the neck Position.
I think you would like under 7.5k.
On regular humbuckers I can't stand a muddy neck pickup, and wind my personal neck pickups around 7.2k DCR.
The way I test a neck pickup is to play the high notes and play the low notes.
If the low E is clear Open String,(No Mud) that is what I am looking for.
Then I want clear High notes Little E up an Octave.
If I achieve that then the mid range usually takes care of itself.
Good Luck,
T
If you want to try a different DCR, wind some new bobbins, and set yours in a drawer, while you test the new ones.
You can always go back to the old coils.

[R.G.]

One real issue with all magnet-and-coil guitar pickups is their sensitivity to **everything** because of the huge inductance and self capacitance of the coil.

The one good way to at least get them to hold still and quit wiggling around with everything is to buffer them right after the coil. This will make things worse if the owner LIKES some of the wiggles that volume and tone controls do. In fact, now that I think about it, this may account for owners having favorite control settings. Hmm.

Anyway, a buffer right after the pickup stops any further messing with the sound from the cables, controls and so on. You at least get stability.

The batteries issue then comes up. The slickest thing I ever saw for this was a "coin slot" in the pickguard where you can slip in a couple of 3V lithium coins.

[big_teee]

One real issue with all magnet-and-coil guitar pickups is their sensitivity to **everything** because of the huge inductance and self capacitance of the coil.

The one good way to at least get them to hold still and quit wiggling around with everything is to buffer them right after the coil. This will make things worse if the owner LIKES some of the wiggles that volume and tone controls do. In fact, now that I think about it, this may account for owners having favorite control settings. Hmm.

Anyway, a buffer right after the pickup stops any further messing with the sound from the cables, controls and so on. You at least get stability.

The batteries issue then comes up. The slickest thing I ever saw for this was a "coin slot" in the pickguard where you can slip in a couple of 3V lithium coins.

Doesn't that make it a active pickup.
Players either love or hate actives.
Vintage players usually always choose passives.

[Steve Conner]

Sure. I bet vintage players don't often choose Fender Wide Range humbuckers either.

[big_teee]

Sure. I bet vintage players don't often choose Fender Wide Range humbuckers either.

Your right about that.
I don't know anyone in my area that plays them.
I've seen several in the used pickup case at the local guitar shops, proof that they get removed on occassion.
T

[daz]

Your right about that.
I don't know anyone in my area that plays them.
I've seen several in the used pickup case at the local guitar shops, proof that they get removed on occassion.
T

True, but not because the wide range humbucker sound isn't liked. In fact, it's outright loved by most anyone who plays a good one. Theres the reason for your observation right there..."anyone who plays a GOOD ONE". If you think they aren't loved look at ebay. The reissues go for about $60 and they probably don't sell well like you said. The originals start at about $400 !!! Thats 400 hundred dollars each, and yes, they do sell for that much which is why you don't see them for less.

My point is this...the reissues have problems. There are some that like them, but most are put off by the muddiness in the lows while the highs are bright making it near impossible to find a balance. You either have muddy lows of super bright harsh highs or you compromise on both and set your amp so neither is too too bad. Thats why you don't see a lot of people using them. Trust me, i've been all over this issue for a year and i know what people think, what the issues are, and what the solutions are. I've researched ad nausium because i believe this sound is incredible when right. And i assure you of this....play an original thats in decent shape (some have been found to be badly demagnetized) or one of the boutique offerings at around $200 apiece, then play a stock RI and you will fully understand why people generally don't use them. It is the stock RI pups that put people off. Some do like them and you will find them ravenous about the tone like i am because they are NOT using stock reissue wide range buckers. Mine are considerably better than stock with the magnet mod i did, which by the way is almost exactly what is offered by "telenator". But it's still not there. however, the basic character that is so loved about them is there if not somewhat flawed. It IS a great sound when it's right. I had an original 72 at one time and it struck me as totally unique and amazing at the time and i never forgot that feeling which is what made me get this RI. And tho many say the RI pickups don't sound anything like the originals, i say they do have the most important aspect of them, the one thing that makes them unique, and thats the huge single coil sound with SC dynamics.

If i can ever find one of the 2 boutiques i haven't tried (there are 3 and i tried one already) used at a reasonable $ i will jump. there are 2 makers that have gotten big time raves about them, and I would pay that crazy amount if i could be sure they'd retain the sound i love but w/o the flaws. But the one i did try got some rave too, and while it sounded really good it as i said earlier was too much like a regular HB.

[big_teee]

True, but not because the wide range humbucker sound isn't liked. In fact, it's outright loved by most anyone who plays a good one. Theres the reason for your observation right there..."anyone who plays a GOOD ONE". If you think they aren't loved look at ebay. The reissues go for about $60 and they probably don't sell well like you said. The originals start at about $400 !!! Thats 400 hundred dollars each, and yes, they do sell for that much which is why you don't see them for less.

My point is this...the reissues have problems. There are some that like them, but most are put off by the muddiness in the lows while the highs are bright making it near impossible to find a balance. You either have muddy lows of super bright harsh highs or you compromise on both and set your amp so neither is too too bad. Thats why you don't see a lot of people using them. Trust me, i've been all over this issue for a year and i know what people think, what the issues are, and what the solutions are. I've researched ad nausium because i believe this sound is incredible when right. And i assure you of this....play an original thats in decent shape (some have been found to be badly demagnetized) or one of the boutique offerings at around $200 apiece, then play a stock RI and you will fully understand why people generally don't use them. It is the stock RI pups that put people off. Some do like them and you will find them ravenous about the tone like i am because they are NOT using stock reissue wide range buckers. Mine are considerably better than stock with the magnet mod i did, which by the way is almost exactly what is offered by "telenator". But it's still not there. however, the basic character that is so loved about them is there if not somewhat flawed. It IS a great sound when it's right. I had an original 72 at one time and it struck me as totally unique and amazing at the time and i never forgot that feeling which is what made me get this RI. And tho many say the RI pickups don't sound anything like the originals, i say they do have the most important aspect of them, the one thing that makes them unique, and thats the huge single coil sound with SC dynamics.

If i can ever find one of the 2 boutiques i haven't tried (there are 3 and i tried one already) used at a reasonable $ i will jump. there are 2 makers that have gotten big time raves about them, and I would pay that crazy amount if i could be sure they'd retain the sound i love but w/o the flaws. But the one i did try got some rave too, and while it sounded really good it as i said earlier was too much like a regular HB.

If you like them, then that is all that Matters, and is important.
I'll stick with regular Humbuckers, Mini Blades or Rails, and I like some of the Stacked Pickups.
And, Of Course regular Single Coils.
That is the other Pickup that gets removed around here, is the Fender Strat Noiseless pickup.
I don't know how many sets of Strat Vintage Single Coils I've made to replace the Noiseless type.
They take them out and throw them in a Drawer.
I hope you get it all worked out!
Peace and Tone,
T

[daz]

I can see why. I tried a lot of the noiseless singles but not one was really close to my ear at least. They just seem to kill hi end....maybe the harmonics, i dunno. But some will sound kinda good at first but then after a time you begin to realize something doesn't sound right. Always wanted to try that suhr thing but then again when i use single coils it;'s almost always with clean to semi dirty tones, and they aren't very noisy like that so it doesn't bother me.

[R.G.]

Doesn't that make it a active pickup.
Players either love or hate actives.
Vintage players usually always choose passives.

It does, they do, and they do.

However, I'm guessing that this is one of the things that has never been done thoughtfully and well. What a buffer does is to prevent anything downstream of it from interfering with what it's getting from upstream. That doesn't mean you can't knock some more treble off the signal after the buffer, or put in/take out a mid-hump, or whatever was previously floating your boat. It just means that you have to think about it and decide what you liked, then do it.

I suspect that there's been precious little knowing what a player likes, much less thinking about it. Players tend to swap things around and settle on some combination they like, then vigorously defend that combination as the only thing any reasonable player would like.

That's OK, and it fits the artistic temperament, but it completely prevents finding something that might be even better (sounding...) because there doesn't happen to be a pickup/cable/pot/capacitor/yada/yada that moves the sound over into the even better area. It precludes searching for and finding a better solution. The engineering/math term is "getting caught in a local minimum".

There was a strong bias against the automobile in the beginning, because it upset the horses; and people generally preferred horses. For a while.

[daz]

Ok, i took your advice guys and built a preamp to use as a buffer. Sounded like a good transparent one from the forum thread i found on google with a link to the page the guy had found and built one from. Heres the page he found it on...

Discrete FET Guitar Preamp

I think it works pretty good to accomplish what you said, which is to eliminate the need for a treble bleed and keep it from getting muddy. but it doesn't do that 100%, it just helps some but i still need the bleed cap. However, it's hard for me to judge it because the output is hotter than unity and i have to lower the amp's pre gain too much to a territory that sounds different than where i normally like it. So can you all have a look and tell me what you think would be the most transparent way to put a trimmer in it so i can achieve unity?