Need to replace a 12" bass cab speaker... What one do i get

[blindboybenton]

Hi to you all

This is an area where i'm not so hot on and looking for some advice

I play bass and and use Valve 100watt valve head's, mostly old converted PA amps. My cabinet is a 2 x10 Warwick 400watt.
But ive just brought a old British built 1970's Bass cabinet with a 60watt 12". Sounds great for me with a good mix of High and lows
And i normally get enough power from what i use

What im looking for is what 12" bass driver i should look at buying. I quick look online and i can see they are all 300-400watt
An old friend of mine (RIP) once told me that a Driver operates best when its being Pushed to its max.ie 100watt amp with 100watt speaker....Is there any truth in that?

Whats a good bass driver to get. any you bassist can recmd? I play mostly 60s/70s Bluesy rock with P Bass and Jazz and my trusty old EB3

On a slightly different note I should be able to change the part of the cabinet on my warwick 2x10 to take a single 15". or maybe a keep one 10" and add a 12" driver

If i was to do any of this is there any other spec's i should take into consideration ie Acoustics. etc

Would welcome any comments on this, But please don't comment if you are just telling me to change my cabinets etc. As i live 2 flights of stairs up and have to carry this stuff up and down the stairs when im playing live. I leave the 2x10" warwick in my car and it just fits in the back nicely and stays there all year round and has done for the past 4 years

many thanks

BBB

[Steve Conner]

Maybe an Eminence Beta 12 or Celestion Truvox? They're not too expensive general purpose 12" drivers rated at about 150W.

Geezer Butler famously used the EVM12L in his bass cabinets. But it's expensive and can sound a bit too "thin" and "tight" in some cabinets due to its high motor strength. The Eminence Delta Pro 12 is similar but cheaper.

There is some truth in the saying that a speaker sounds best when pushed near its maximum power. The higher the power the speaker is designed for, the bigger and heavier the voice coil will be. The extra weight tends to lower the sensitivity and dull the treble output. So you don't want to be using a voice coil any bigger than necessary to handle your amp's output power.

[blindboybenton]

Thanks steve. this old cab and speaker just sound nice. and not too heavy

[bob p]

The guys at Talkbass seem to be fond of the Eminence 12" drivers that Steve mentioned.

I understand thatyou're not looking for cabs, and I'm not recommending that you change cabs, but if you want to do some digging, then there are some very useful threads over there about fEarful bass cabs with 12" drivers and which drivers work best in them. the eminence drivers are quite popular.

[bob p]

TL Series Enclosure Spec Comparision.pdf


evm12L-eds.pdf

> Geezer Butler famously used the EVM12L in his bass cabinets. But it's expensive and can sound a bit too "thin" and "tight" ...

Interesting that you mention "thin and tight", as these are exactly what the EV cabinet specs would suggest. See attachment.

I've been using the EVM15L in original EV TL-606 prototypes since the 1970s as a guitar/4 string bass rig. I like the fact that I can choose as many cabs as needed for the application and stack them. In comparison, the EVM12L in the TL-806 works great for guitar, but it does indeed sound thin and tight when used for bass. It's frequency response is designed for guitar, and it suffers from lack of bottom for a 4-string.

the f3 down points for the EVM-12L/TL-806 are about half an octave to an octave higher than the EVM-15L/TL-606 setup. That lack of fundamental in the response curve certainly would lead to the "thin and tight" description of the box's sound.

One thing I would recommend if anyone's interested in 12" drivers for bass -- I would put them in a sealed box with large volume, rather than the popular TS cabinets that are designed for guitar. The problem with using TS arrays is that if you need to reproduce frequencies that are below the box tuning then the driver excursion becomes quite large, which is quite bad for the driver.

If you look at the EVM-12L spec sheet, even when you put it in a rather large box the frequency response won't change much. From a cabinet volume of 1 to 3 cubic feet the response goes down to about 80Hz and that's about it. Although great for guitar, it could sound thin for bass.

[Earl Norton]

Take a look at this neo speaker. Very lite and spl is good.

Eminence Deltalite II 2512 Neo 12" Driver 290-593

[loudthud]

What im looking for is what 12" bass driver i should look at buying. I quick look online and i can see they are all 300-400watt
An old friend of mine (RIP) once told me that a Driver operates best when its being Pushed to its max.ie 100watt amp with 100watt speaker....Is there any truth in that?

Not so much anymore. When it comes to bass guitar, a speaker will usually distort on low notes well before it gets to it's power rating. And the point at which the speaker distorts is very dependant on how the speaker enclosure is sized and tuned. Installing a speaker in a box that wasn't designed for it usually gives poor or less than optimal results. The easiest thing to do is follow what the manufacturer recommends. Or find an example of someone that has gone through a couple of cycles of cut and try it. Look on the TalkBass forum. Link: TalkBass.com - Bass Guitar and Double Bass Forums: Basses, Amps, Strings, Effects

Over about the last 20 years there has been a tendancy for bass guitar speakers to get smaller but require more power. The net result is that they are not tube amp friendly. There are three parameters in a bass speaker. Box size, low frequency extension and efficiency. You can pick two but have to compromise on the third.

[J M Fahey]

Dear BBB.
Would love to help you but unfortunately you have contradicting specs.
Loudthud said it all:

Over about the last 20 years there has been a tendancy for bass guitar speakers to get smaller but require more power. The net result is that they are not tube amp friendly.

I was going to write about the same when I found his post.
When I read your line about 2 x10 Warwick 400watt I instantly pictured:
excellent cabinet ... needs 200/250W to drive it ... easy with an SS head, not with tubes.
As-is , is it enough for you?
Fine, keep it, doubt you can do much better within that box.
*Maybe* you can improve it somewhat (remember that it's already "good") by getting 2 *expensive* speakers there.

I've had excellent results with Faital pro drivers , efficient and light.
Take a look at the
Faital Pro 10PR300 10" Speakers - Faital Pro 10PR300 10" speaker and that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 10PR300 600 watt 10" high efficiency of 98dB SPL woofer for all high power bass applications. Faital Pro
Consider it a "light EVM10L" .
Light because of the Neodymium magnet, not specs.
**98 dB efficiency**
It's labelled as "mid Bass" speaker, which is actually fine, it means it's not a Subwoofer (which would be pure mud, suitable only for Reggae) but "what a Bass Player needs", with good bass, definition, and reaches quite high ... for a Bass.
In fact that line is labelled as suitable for "Bass Guitar/PA Woofer".
There is the ceramic version, somewhat cheaper but heavier:
Faital Pro 10PR310 10" Speakers - Faital Pro 10PR310 10" speaker for bass guitar or as a mid-bass speaker - Faital Pro 10PR310 600 watt 10" high efficiency of 98dB SPL woofer for all high power bass applications. Faital Pro 10PR310

For 60s/70s Bluesy rock with P Bass and Jazz and a 100W tube head what you *really* need is a large, undamped, 2x15" speaker box; loose, smooth and boxy, with 15" Eminence Legends for the classic American sound, but sadly that's out of the question

The "Greek" Eminence (Beta/Gamma/etc.) recommended above are *very* good, very flat, but less efficient and punchy than these.
No problem if you have ample power to drive them but for a Bass , and driven by a power limited Tube head, these will provide a higher acoustic level , needed within a Bass situation.

PS: the full Faital line is in:Beyma - Faital Pro Speakers, Faital Pro Speaker Parts, Faital Pro bass speakers, Faital Pro speaker upgrades. Faital Pro woofers, crossovers, horns, drivers, etc. Faital Pro has some of the finest speaker parts.
Italian speakers are *very* good.

[Steve Conner]

The best bass rig I ever had was my 60W tube head with a Hartke VX215 2x15" cab. The drivers in it were paper coned and quite high sensitivity, rather than the usual Hartke aluminium pie plates. Probably quite similar to the Eminence Legends suggested by JM. It just sounded great all the time.

The only drawback was the size and weight of it. It was relatively small and light for a 2x15, but that's not saying much. I got tired of carrying it up and down 4 floors. When I left the band I played bass in, I sold all my bass cabinets (still miss that Trace Elliot 2x10 ) and made a mini cabinet using a single EVM12L in a vented box, tuned similar to the TL806. It is great for guitar and can be used for bass in an emergency. Must get around to making a matching 2x8" one day.

For a given cone size, the lower you want a driver to go in frequency, the less efficient it will be. That's why for tube amps we are recommending midbass drivers like the Delta Pro 12 and EVM12L. The amp power is limited, so efficiency is more important than bass extension.

[bob p]

Pie plates!

I agree with Steve -- a 2x15 cabinet is unwieldy and difficult to manage. Stacking a pair of 1x15 seems to make a lot more sense to me. Sure, you have to make two trips, and the total weight might be a little more, but each cab is a lot lighter and easier to manage.

[Randall]

I play bass. I use the Eminence Delta 12LF, $95 shipped at www.avatarspeakers.com

[Steve Conner]

The Delta 12LF is a good choice if you're using an amp with lots of power. However it's maybe not such a good match for a 100W tube amp, as it's about 5dB less sensitive than the other speakers we recommended. More of a high power subwoofer than a midbass PA driver.

[bob p]

somebody help me out here. what's the point of having inefficient speakers that require amps with kilowatts of power? this current trend toward ultra high powered mosfet bass rigs with horribly inefficient speakers seems like a total waste to me. all my life i've been looking for efficient speaker/cab configurations that decrease the amount of power that you need in an amp head. the popularity of these low efficiency drivers seems like a way to sell amps with more transistors.

[loudthud]

What's the point of having inefficient speakers that require amps with kilowatts of power?

There are three parameters in a bass speaker. Box size, low frequency extension and efficiency. You can pick two but have to compromise on the third.

Smaller cabinets that still cover the bottom octave.

[Randall]

The Delta 12LF is a good choice if you're using an amp with lots of power. However it's maybe not such a good match for a 100W tube amp, as it's about 5dB less sensitive than the other speakers we recommended. More of a high power subwoofer than a midbass PA driver.

Then again, it depends on what your needs are. I use a 500 watt Delta 12LF in a tuned cab with a 30 watt tube amp and it gets the low volume stand up bass tone I am after for that gig. I also use it as a second cab with a 2x10 in my 300 watt ss bass rig for louder gigs, and it works there as well. My primary concern in both applications is that it gets down low enough for a 12" bass cab.