Gain

[wizard333]

squeezing a 3-stage tube circuit to the max, but it'll be a punky, raw kind of gain

Nope, I don't do "punky" gain.

I find that the vast majority of players greatly over-estimate the amount of distortion used on recordings to get the sounds they like. A good producer usually wises them up in the studio.

[potatofarmer]

We could go off the cover of Tape Op #88, just a whole row of bunnies: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...op-binnies.jpg

[soundguruman]

I realize this is kind of a rudimentary question, but I wonder if, maybe, a lot of people are just as confused as I am.
Seems like when I read about amps, the words Gain and Distortion kind of get used synonymously. But are they.?
I thought gain was the amplification factor of a tube.....the net "gain" in the difference between the amplitude of the input signal and the output signal.
Assuming we are dealing with amplification on the linear part of the tube.....you can have more gain that Is Not distorted.....it just has more gain/amplitude. Am I right about that.?
So what are the benefits of a "High Gain" amp. ? Why do players (that want high gain) want "a lot" of gain.?
What can you do with an SLO that you cannot do with a Super Reverb.?
I just repair, and work on amps (to my ability) I do not play guitar. I am a drummer.
Thank You

What the guitar player really wants is high sensitivity on the input. Not high gain. These are frequently mixed up and confused.
What the guitar player really wants is distortion from the output tubes being over driven, not the preamp.
Amps that have preamp overdrive are just trying to imitate the REAL sound of over-driven output tubes.
Output tube overdrive is the real thing. All imitations (especially "effects" pedals) fall short of the real sound.

[wizard333]

Couldnt disagree more.

1) High distortion players don't want "sensitivity", or if they do, it is way down the list because high distortion amps by definition squash the sound, which is the nemesis of sensitivity.

2) Oh where to start on this one.......
a) For one thing, if you're cranking an amp to get "output tube distortion", the WHOLE AMP is distorting, not just the output tubes. That means the preamp stages, the PI, the transformer is probably saturating. All this talk I see about "power tube" vs. "pre amp" distortion is so much hoooey, because if you're distorting your output tubes, its not "output tube distortion" its WHOLE AMP DISTORTION. That includes the preamp. SO at least describe it accurately.

b) Even if you were to describe it accurately, if you look at sales figures since pre-amp vs whole amp distortion amps have been available, pre-amp distortion amps win by a country mile. I guess *umble amps must be not be wanted because they rely on pre-amp gain. Ditto Mesa, most Marshalls made in the last 20 years or so, etc etc etc. Thats like saying what car buyers really want is an Edsel or a GMC Pacer.

3) Amps that have pre-amp drive are doing what they do. They are doing it because WHOLE AMP distortion amps were too loud and "didnt have enough distortion, man".

4) Output tube overdrive is part of WHOLE AMP overdrive, and isn't the "real thing" anymore than pre-amp tube drive or pedals. Having used gobs of all 3 over the years, I can tell you, I'd much rather use the latter 2. The only thing you get with WHOLE AMP drive that can be hard to get, but certainly not impossible with the right design, from a pedal or pre-amp gain is the compression of whole amp drive on low distortion situations, giving a certain feel even though the amount of distortion may not be high. Most modern players wouldn't know what that was if it hit them upside the head anyway.

Every time I see this "power amp distortion is the real thing, everything else sucks" bull crap, my head explodes. There is so much wrong with that statement technically and empirically.

[Chuck H]

1) High distortion players don't want "sensitivity", or if they do, it is way down the list because high distortion amps by definition squash the sound, which is the nemesis of sensitivity.

Let's try to keep any arguments legitimate. Sensitivity IS what high distortion players want. They want small signals like harmonics, taps and touches to jump out just as loud as solid picked notes. That sort of sensitivity is what you get by cascading high gain stages. What I think your referring to is dynamics. Which is also a term that is misused as a guitar tone adjective. Sort of. Different discussion. Otherwise I fully agree with the rest of your post.

[wizard333]

What you're talking about is what happens with extreme compression, where light touches and small sounds like tapped harmonics are the same volume as a note picked hard. That is a by-product of lots of distortion.

When I hear "sensitivity", I think of being able to go from almost clean to quite distorted with only control of how hard and how you hit the strings.

[Chuck H]

Ok, let's face it. We, guitarists, amp builders and marketers as a group, have managed to define all the attractive sounding adjectives how ever we see fit. And worse, often on a personally interpretive level. Which has been allowed and acceptable for so long that now no one knows WTF someone else is talking about WRT gain blocks and tonal qualities in guitar amps. Let's all give ourselves a pat on the back. Three cheers for illiteracy (did I spell that right?).

[J M Fahey]

When I hear "sensitivity", I think of being able to go from almost clean to quite distorted with only control of how hard and how you hit the strings.

Mmmmh, I see what you point at.

That's not what "sensitivity" means, (in an electrical way), at all, but it's a (could I call it "Marketing"?) buzzword used by generally electronics illiterate musicians when describing certain sounds.

What they call "pick sensitivity" or "finger sensitivity" or "guitar volume sensitivity".

A word used coloquially, far away from its "dictionary" definition.

In fact, even I have used it too sometimes, but I'm quite aware it's absolutely unrelated to any "gain" or "electrical" sensitivity definition.

As removed as when, say, a girl says "I love my boyfriend because he's a sensitive guy" (whatever that means).

Won't even mention "Extra Sensitive Condoms"

EDIT: FWIW *this* is a "sensitive guy":



By the way, great film

[loudthud]

So what is the icon for sensitivity? An eye with a tear drop hanging on one side?

Maybe the solution is just use a foreign language, or make up words.

Volucrunchen
Trebostraten
Midosmileyhaben
Bassomudifier
Mastoshootenouten

[Enzo]

Maybe a picture of Hugh Grant.


I am not quite sure what a picture of Taylor Swift would indicate.


A switch with a picture of a (work with me here) bus parked by a prison. It means con-tour.

(Thank you thank you, I'll be here all week)

[Leo_Gnardo]

I am not quite sure what a picture of Taylor Swift would indicate.

Makeup Gain

[bob p]

I remember seeing an SLO in Eric Clapton's back-line for several years. What was he able to do with that that he could not do with a Tweed Bassman, Tweed Twin, Blues Breaker, etc etc etc.?

He was able to get that crappy / over-processed chorus + OD "cocaine" tone that plagued him through the 80s. you can't make a Tweed Bassman, Tweed Twin, or Bluesbreaker sound that bad.

[trem]

I will have to admit.....I liked his "God" tone much better than anything in the post 1975 era.
Guess we all have our opinions.
Apparently he disagreed with us.
Who would of thought....?

[Chuck H]

He was able to get that crappy / over-processed chorus + OD "cocaine" tone that plagued him through the 80s. you can't make a Tweed Bassman, Tweed Twin, or Bluesbreaker sound that bad.

Aw, c'mon... I love the lead tone on Forever Man. Chirpy, chewy and saturated at the same time. Really makes a statement bustin' in the way it does.

Enzo. I thought that WAS a Taylor Swift picture on Juan's post!?!

[J M Fahey]

Hey!!, where did you find that?
It's my 1976 to about 1980 "bread and butter" model, sold almost 1500 of them (plus matching 2x12" cabinets) and definitely helped pay for my house.

Many of them are still found all over the place, (35 years later) and I'm probably making a "reissue" batch to test waters, since some people claim "I'd buy another if you made one now".

Ok, let's see if they let their wallet repeat what their mouth says.