Vol/ Master Vol : Redux.

[eschertron]

But the eg shows it. Both his description, his sound, & his diagram: MV is at 10, & prior to this the input from the GTR was -decreaced- by the Vol (input) knob at 1 > then to preamp tube which then amplified this minimalised signal into a medium but not excessive/ no tube clipping' signal > which then fed the power tubes which were at max.

He said this eg is power tube distortion. So are you saying he is wrong?

Just watched the video. His diagram clearly shows the preamp volume at 6 with his moderately-loud, moderately-distorted power-tube clipping. If he had turned his input vol down (as he does with his guitar vol) the sound would clean right up. He demonstrates this. There must be a minimum signal level. Look again at the video and see how he diagrams the amplitude of the waveform into and out from each component section. There will be no power tube clipping until the signal passed by the master volume reaches a critical level. It doesn't matter what happens to the signal prior to this point, only that the signal can get this big by the time it reaches this point.

It's an interesting video series. Start with video 1 and work from there.

[Sea Chief]

Ok- I see his vol at 6. I keep well away from screen (glare) you see I had it firmly in mind as I set in prob/ or as his reversed eg had MV at 2 or s'thing & his diagram-small input vol waves looked small/ at '2' or so. Bollocks. Bolocks . Bollocks tits arse and bollocks. Im throwing all this gtr amp crap in the river. Does my goddam head in. not my sg.

[Sea Chief]

Apologies fellas- Ive obviously wasted your time here. If he had that pesky volume knob on his diagram easier to see Id not have been in any confusion. So a damned attenuator then (somehow they just seem -the- most godawful things/ they just seem wrong) maybe. Im having none of this tizzy 80's bighair preamp baloney. An SG into that is like driving an AstonM on 3" tyres.

Anyone built a diy attenuator here? I dont suppose theres a heap of components in a basic vol box-with-heat-dissipation. I'll be damned if Im spending £90+ on a new one.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

This is why I think the perfect guitar amp is something like a 18-20 watt 1x12", reverb amp, but with an extra gain stage on the front end and a master volume... it can do just about everything... including be loud as Hell!!

[Sea Chief]

You mean the ubiquitous 'Channel 1 / Vol....... Channel 2/ Gain..MV' ? Or do you mean 'an extra gain stage' linked to the already channel 2?? that would make my head explode trying to understand that. It sounds godawful nd gimmicky like channel 2 does. I have this channel 2 on 3 of my 4.5 amps, and it makes me lazy and uninterested. I want a step-up now.

But how would the 2nd channel be of any use? as the eg shows there ^ a typical best-seller of similar design, the Channel 2 gain/MV is bad enough to be used only as an eg in a clip. Surely no-one is actually going to use that? Its like having a V8 ready there with a 'bonus/everyday runabout' engine tagged-on.. 'oh that sounds ok'ish Ill use that'. Thats what old people do with their 1100cc fiat used 98% of the time and their bmw 520i sitting in the garage for 6 years with 2,462 miles on the clock. Thats because they are senile & worried sick about everything.

Why cant these amp-makers instead of this appaling channel 2 nonsense, just add an attenuator instead? so all those 'gainy' sounds -actually- sound right/ as the amp should sound not some 2-bit BigHair approximation/ the V8 is used then and no need to even consider the piddly runaround engine.

I bet there'd be a few more decent bands around if this was the case. I dont trust fender with all this 'HotRod' bollocks tbh.

[Steve Conner]

Why cant these amp-makers instead of this appaling channel 2 nonsense, just add an attenuator instead? so all those 'gainy' sounds -actually- sound right/ as the amp should sound not some 2-bit BigHair approximation/ the V8 is used then and no need to even consider the piddly runaround engine.

I bet there'd be a few more decent bands around if this was the case. I dont trust fender with all this 'HotRod' bollocks tbh.

I believe they don't do this because it's more expensive to produce than a master volume. There have been a few attempts like the Princeton Recording. Smaller, lower powered amps like the Tiny Terror and Blackstar HT5 are also getting more popular.

The amp I mostly gig with is similar to what Bruce described. A channel switcher with reverb, where one channel has an extra gain stage so it can drive itself into preamp distortion.

This makes it technically a master volume amp, but I was careful to avoid the "Big hair" sound when I built it, and in practice the distorted tone is just about as good as the Corvette. It also has the bonus of a second channel that is completely clean.

[Sea Chief]

"A channel switcher with reverb, where one channel has an extra gain stage so it can drive itself into preamp distortion.

This makes it technically a master volume amp, but...."

..not I guess = My head has just exploded.

-------------------------------------------------------

I wonder now then if the preamp distortion that was so obviously complete rubbish in the Blues Jr, eg above (why then this amp is so popular -as its likely this preamp od is the only od used, by most, most of the time unless they have a detatched empty house to blast it properly/ most folks dont- I cannot understand) can in some cases (not marshall- they all sound rubbish even on properly turned up, but for that 'early model one') actually sound decent in other amps-?. I have seen YT demos (YT is just great for demos even if at what actual vol the amp is at, is often hard to decipher) I stumbled upon named 'ss vs solid state rectifier' of an old 60's WEM 15w amp in which Im fairly sure was heard a 2nd channel w'gain-knob-affair for some od sounds.. and it souded very good indeed. Warmth and tone not too dissimilar to an early fender (or early Park?) which imo is totally lacking on every godawful bite-only/one-dimensional marshall I ever hear. Then maybe its just fender who churn out this channel 2 BS sound thing.. why the heck if they are the tone-kings of clean, (and properly turned up are imo the tone-kings of all 2nd to none) why would they compromise their amps with such drivvel as the HotRod whiz-bang channel 2 crap, or even crappier the red-knob channel 2 BigHair horrorshow?

[Justin Thomas]

A 60s amp with a second channel with a gain knob? On a 15W amp? I doubt it... I think it's more as stated previously - the amp stops getting louder at 3 because of the way it's made circuitwise and just sounds crunchier and better from there. Here's an example of a Fender with the same problem: my 67 AB165 BF Bassman maxes out "clean" at about 4 on either channel, with a Tele. It stops getting "louder" at about 5.5. Then it's just trashy crunch from there, and it's phenomenal. Luckily, my neighbor commutes to Nashville and LOVES the sound of blasting Fenders.

As to why they put the awful 2nd channel in for the distortion, several reasons. One, it is a legitimate tool for some people to play and record with - they get paid using that channel! Two, listen to what the kids listen to: how can all those kids get that sound at a level that won't get them pawned off to Weird Uncle Johnny by their parents? Give em a distortion channel! I tried this with kids at church this summer. I had my Bassman, a 62 Concert, a 79 Champ, my Spitfire clone, and 2 little Squier practice amps. Guess what they all wanted to play through? Yup, the ones with the second channel, gain o 10, volume low so it wouldn't hurt their ears. Congrats - you know the difference. 95% of people don't. Don't hate them for it, just don't ever compromise yourself.

So if some people use that "crap" channel as a useful tool (and get paid doing it!), and other people just don't know the difference between real" "good" distortion tone, then Fender/Marshall/Crate/Peavey - ANY COMPANY IN MASS-MANUFACTURING - can SELL MORE AMPS! Keep in mind, they are a business! They figure if -you- don't like the dirty channel, then just don't use the stupid thing!

And when all of us get the $3000 or whatever to have the boutique custom amp of our dreams built to our specs with all the distortion customized to our perfect guitargasmic tone, maybe then all those big manufacturers will stop putting crappy distortion 2nd channels on their amps.

Justin

[Sea Chief]

Having looked at this eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkw1sz3QVOE I thought was a good eg to show a decent sound from a channel 2-gain+MV-type amp... but it seems this isnt a gain/mv-type-amp, just 2 channels exactly the same (so a 1-vol-knob-amp).

Which leads me right back to the most confounding thing of all this to me. This eg is a 15w amp. I assume it is comparable to a 5E3 in volume. Its tonal sound is ~similar (albeit more tonal bite as expected). I am not concerned with the tone. What confounds me most is how this chap can sit there, on an afternnon in his bare feet, chatting away, with the amp obviously turned up to well it sounds like nr flat out if thereis that much distortion. If he DID have a gain/MV-type-affair I would understand he had dialed down the MV/ overall vol. Its not, its a single-vol so like a 5E3 in that respect.

Now, I have achieved this holy grail sound (to me it is a quest/ to everyone else its easy and everyday act as turning on the tv it seems) only -once-. Once & of 2 minutes. In my life/ 30 years of playing. I had a 15w 5E3, I took over to a huge house (not mine) to try it 'up' properly and not quite flat-out either, though I believe actual vol doesnt change much between say 7 and 10. It was FEROCIOUSLY LOUD I was nervous playing even 3 chords. It was so loud in fact I was threatened within 5 mins by a far away neighbour [not even a neighbour, he lived 400+ metres away] who was furious so loud it was.

I just dont understand: there is/ there has to be a MASSIVE volume difference between these guys sitting in a chair happily enough with their 15w and a great tone/ amp up.. and my 2 minutes of doing so. There is no ferociousness involved with them, no trepidation to hit a chord with any primed nuke vol there, nothing whatsoever. There is no mention of an attenuator being used (I would understand this discrepency if so). IM not saying theirs aren't loud, but room-loud/ pop it on a YT clip loud, is --NOT in ANY-- way equitable to huge-detached-house-disturbing-the neighbours-to-police-threats L O U D. I wouldnt even dream of playing that amp again. So I haven't in 5 years & Id not even a condideration- it was near painful to me as much as anything.

So how/ why this undoubtable, definite H U G E difference? how on gods holy earth are these folks achieving this?? (forget the ss/vs tube recto, its just another goddam volume Q).

eg 1: Tweed Deluxe Volume Interaction Demonstration - YouTube
eg 2: Weber 5E3 demo - YouTube
eg 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FauVlhtu8nQ

Any of the numerous 5e3 amps in break-up YT clips I could use, which can -only- be a one-vol knob affair (so NOT a gain/MV vol low vol affair, NOT an attenuator affair, NOT an OD pedal) to avoid any confusion of how the distortion was achieved.
The 1st clip the guy just nattering way to the mic (if he was shouting and showed he had ear-defenders on I would understand) & the 2nd clip looks like he's just having a quick strum in his bare feet in a flamin appartment?! The 3rd 'Mr Fender' guy again sits happily there chatting: there is -no- evidence anyone is being blown to shreds with any ferocious volume, in fact they both look calm as calm, even with a Twin @ what 40w or so? WTF. How?

SC

[Enzo]

Consider this:
You listened to these examples of various settings and distortions versus cleans. You listened to them on your computer speakers. No matter whether the sound was clean of distorted, you could determine how loud the examples were to listen to by setting the volume of your computer. At that moment, the computer was part of your signal chain. And the volume on your computer was now your master volume. You could listen to the whole demonstration late in the evening at low level to not bother the neighbors and even hear the differences. The next afternoon you can listen to it all over but up at loud levels and still hear the same differences.

[Sea Chief]

Yes Ive considered all that. My Q is not to do with how I have heard or perceived the volume of the clips. There is clear evidence of a MASSIVE volume difference, physical signs. I don't see "Mr fender guys cat blasted to the side of the room". Heck Mr Fender guy is even quietly nattering away between twiddles/ no signs of ANY ferocious volume there at all (even via the 40w TwinOLux!). Now, s'one on here said 'yes a 5E3 can be tremendously loud turned up' which lead me to consider maybe not then that A) my volume was somehow/ I somehow managed to build the amp incorrectly so I had tripled the volume (unlikely- not likely Im fairly sure/ I dont think physically its even possible) or that B) I had incorrectly put in a spkr of such incredible sensitivity it registered 120.5db (it was a std jensen C12N) but that C) somehow these guys/ these egs are NOWHERE near the volume either mine was, or of the aformentioned 'yes 5E3's can be tremendously loud' amp whoesever amp that was, was. [or D) an attenuator was used in all these clips].

So I rule out D), I rule out B) and I think I can safely rule out A) too.

So it must be C) somehow these guys 5E3's were -not- as loud as mine. All the indications point this way: all easy-going quietly chatting, no ear-defenders anywhere, bare feet lazy-afternoon strums (no tortured cats, neighbour threats, or police involved neither). The mystery is how.

[Steve Conner]

A 5E3 in good working order is really loud. End of story. You couldn't crank it up in an apartment building unless your neighbours were very understanding, deaf, or happened to be out. I can't see why you have so much trouble accepting this. If you can't handle the volume, just sell the damn thing and buy a Fender Greta or the like.

The people in your example videos are all probably electric musicians who are used to these volume levels and probably suffering a bit of noise-induced hearing loss too.

Bearing in mind what I said about compression earlier, provided the guy isn't talking at the same time as he plays guitar, the compressor will even out the volume difference and the amp won't appear that much louder than his voice.

[Sea Chief]

Is there any way I could have somehow increaced the volume hugely by way of a wiring, for eg input jack cockup? (the 4-jack wiring on these drove me insane!). As said it sounded like a 5e3 of sorts, just on MEGA steroids. Tbh it was scary. I understand the mic compression thing, & altho its bad for my egs, the volume differential is still undoubtadly enormous. There is -no way- on gods earth Mr fender guy could have played my amp, in that setting, with vol knob at 7. No way. The interviewer would've been clutching her ears and/or going insane, the windows would be rattling ando/r Mr fender guy himself going insane with the sheer vibration under his butt as much as the noise itself. Nope- he sits serenely there as does Ms reporter lassie. Something doesn't add up/ not even close.

The amp itself I dismantled recently it was totally useless so loud it was, so its not a case of how I can use that particular amp but the volume of a 'proper' 15w amps in general (ie w'out the ghastly gain/MV stuff I find a nonsense.. unless I can be persuaded they can be good/ no evidence I can see its anything but gimmick-distortion for the 'green day' mega-max-numpties) and more the mystery of how folks can be sitting there on the amps doing YT clips with them at vol8 at all. I guesss Ill never know. They had to have been at a far lesser volume/ you can see theres no flaling arms/ gnaskhing of teeth etc etc/ theres no other way than the vols were lower [& no evidence of attenuators] & so the Q remains- how.

[Chuck H]

Points made that are absolutely true regardless of any perceptions:

The master volume on any amp does not turn the power amp distortion up and down. It turns the signal going to the power tubes up and down. The power tubes clip at a fixed, loud volume.

Video recordings are nearly always misleading with respect to volume representation.

The only ways to get power tube distortion at a controlled, not loud volume is with an attenuator, which is a volume control placed after the power tubes or by limiting the power tubes output capabilities as with power scaling type circuits. Turning up the master volume absolutely does not make any amp capable of power tube clipping at lower volume.

The perception that guys in videos are playing at what you would consider a manageable volume is false. Just because they're not wincing and blinking and the guitar isn't squealing uncontrollably doesn't mean it's quiet. It means that those players are much more comfortable than you are dealing with loud guitars.

The sound your after, that you have seen others get, may be partly due to the higher volumes at which these sounds are derived. The guitar and amplifier work together acoustically at higher volumes. This cannot happen at lower volumes.

The notion that preamp distortion = bad and power amp distortion = good is false. Don't drink the gear page Kool-Aid. In general, clipping is clipping. Of course there are differences in how preamp tubes and power tubes clip. This is because they are in different circuits. Recent technologies in high gain, cascade preamps have done away with buzzy preamp clipping. The last ingredient is volume itself. Loud distortion sounds better than quiet distortion because our own ears (or possibly a mediocre condenser mic) compress the frequencies and reduce perceived buzzy-ness.

I know you believe what you think you saw, but the reality is not how you perceived it. No more than the possibility that David Blaine can actually float. You need to toss all your perceptions out the window and deal exclusively with facts. Did the instructor in the video ever say that turning the master volume up allowed for lower volume power tube distortion? No? Then why do you believe that. It is much better to know than to believe. Your perceptions on this subject are wrong and everything the posters here have told you is right. This is something you can know if you choose not to ignore it.

[Steve Conner]

Is there any way I could have somehow increaced the volume hugely by way of a wiring, for eg input jack cockup

No. If there was a way of increasing the volume, Fender would have done it as it would have been a selling point even in the 1950s.

its not a case of how I can use that particular amp but the volume of a 'proper' 15w amps in general

Maybe you just can't handle the volume of a 15W amp. You seem far more sensitive to noise than the average rock musician that these amps are designed for.