Does it really matter where I put the foil end with an OD type cap?

[leadfootdriver]

I'm ordering some 225P's for my amp. Should I worry about which end is which when I install them?

[tedmich]

probably not but a double blind experiment might a good use of your time

[Chuck H]

I built two identical amps (component tolerances not withstanding) using 715's (the polypropylene OD). I intentionally put all the outer wrap legs to the lowest impedance side of the circuits on one amp and did the opposite with the other. There was no difference in noise and any minor tonal differences could be chalked up to component tolerances. These differences were VERY small. You could A/B the amps in the middle of a passage and not notice if you weren't the one pressing the button.

[leadfootdriver]

That's good to know then lol..

I bet amps assembled in China pay no attention to this anyways.

[Enzo]

Actually, I bet the amps made in China DO. The circuit boards are stuffed by pick-and-place machines, and they will take components off a tape feed, which come from the part maker that way, so in all likelihood, the caps all face the same way. And thus all the caps will be inserted into the board the same way. However, I wouldn;t be surprised if the engineers ignore it when specifying the tape feed. I don't think the Chinese-ness has much to do with it. Chinese amps are not made by people squatting on the sidewalk while wearing teakwood shower clogs.

We can poo-poo the CHinese, but remember they have RIGHT NOW got a little rover vehicle on the moon, they have a space station in orbit. They have a maglev railroad line. Stereotypes don;t work.

[soundmasterg]

The only thing I don't like about Chinese made products is that the Chinese in general seem to always go for the quick buck and the bait and switch....they will make you the perfect parts for a quote or samples, and then when you make the order, they skimp out in some way to make more money, and you get a substandard part. They don't seem to have the history in their culture to build the best products....they want to build the cheapest and quickest, and are more concerned about profits and customers right now than profits and customers long term. In a level playing field, that approach will lose because people will go for the higher quality, longer lasting product every time....but with the labor costs so much lower over there, they still have their portion of the market. Eventually as their wages rise, that will change and they will either have to increase their quality, or they will lose business.

Greg

[Enzo]

Chinese in general seem to always go for the quick buck and the bait and switch

In general? WHICH Chinese are these? The ones selling parts on ebay for low prices? I met a guy on the street in Chicago, and he was selling wristwatches. He had Rolex watches that were way cheaper than the store price. I don't think he was Chinese. Point being that scam artists come in all colors and with addresses everywhere. They build what we ask them to build. If you are Peavey or Fender or Line 6 or whoever, you specifiy what you want made and contract someone to make it. Those companies don't just hp on a place to China and hope to find amps to sell.

In a level playing field, that approach will lose because people will go for the higher quality, longer lasting product every time

No, they don't. If that were true, there would be no WalMart, there would be no Velveeta, there would be no Chef Boyardee canned spaghetti. People go for cheap. That is why we hear story after story after story of someone getting a great deal on transistors on ebay only to get them and finfd them to be useless fakes. "If you had paid the going price from a REAL parts company..."


China and the Chinese are not monolithic, they are not generic. They can put men in space, or they can build cheap junk, they build whatever you ask them too and whatever you accept in return.

[soundguruman]

The outside foil always faces the source.
The source would be the plate...outside foil faces the plate, or audio source.

Yes it made a difference, as far as noise is concerned.
But with better designs, better layout, not many pay attention to it anymore.

In older designs there was more of a detectable difference, in noise.

"Chinese made products is that the Chinese in general seem to always go for the quick buck and the bait and switch.."
Yes how true.
The big difference is that the products are not made to last, and have little or no parts support.

There are some exceptions:
Chinese ORANGE amp is pretty well made, and has parts support. But that is not typical for Chinese products.
So you see, not ALL Chinese is that bad. There are a few good ones, here and there.

BUT people keep buying horrible Chinese Amps. With no parts support....(especially Transformers)
They think they are saving money.
But in the long run, you don't save anything really. It breaks, you throw it away, and buy a new one.
It costs twice as much, there is no bargain, because it's made to break, and made to be non-serviceable.

AND there are a lot of China Manufacturers trying to hide the fact...that the product is Chinese.
"Designed in West Germany" it says on the amp...
"Designed in England" it says on the amp...
BUT it's just another misrepresentation, to hide the fact...that it's really made in China.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'm ordering some 225P's for my amp. Should I worry about which end is which when I install them?

Some of the hi fi crowd seem to obsess over this. You can search Audio Asylum and come up with lots of threads. Presumably the outer foil of a film cap should be used at the end which will give it the most shielding capability.

Heck why not wrap the cap in copper foil and ground that if you're worrying about shielding. In some Mesa-Boogie repairs I've done exactly that.

[minim]

SGM et al, you're missing the point. Do you realise there are cheap amps made in South Korea and Vietnam too? By major brands? Are you getting my point yet? Why the Chinese? It just might pay to consider they're your chosen punching bag. My work truck is made right here in Australia and, quite frankly, it shits parts on a regular basis. Anyway an electronics forum where people are up to bigger games in life is no place for bigotry. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but singling out whatever race is just ugly.

Apologies for getting off topic.

[Chuck H]

There's a very good reason for anyone from the US to choose China as their punching bag. It's not lack of quality though. Any perceived lack of quality has to do with the price point and demands from the corporate entities the factories build for. Not the fault of the Chinese. They'll build it any way you want it. The reason to NOT buy Chinese is that their manufacturing machine is well poised to eat the world. It's nothing personal or racist. I just don't like the idea of one country manufacturing so much of the worlds goods under low regulatory standards supported by corporate greed that has most of the political arena in their pockets. Anyone who doesn't think this is a bad idea, raise your hand.

[R.G.]

Does anyone remember the 80s, when "Made in the USA" was taken to be equivalent to "This is junk"? Or when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "Highest possible quality stuff"? Or even back in the 60s when "Made in Japan" meant "Cheap imitations"?

I have personally worked with Chinese manufacturers for a number of years, and I have some experience with this topic. The Chinese are businessmen. They will sell you what you want to buy.

If you want quality, you can get it. You just have to specify what quality level has to be maintained, give them a quality design to work with, and then work with them on maintaining that quality level. In fact, you get quality from Chinese manufacturers the same way you get it from USA, England, German, French, or Swahili manufacturers: you (1) know and write down what "quality" is, in detailed technical terms, then (2) communicate - a lot - with the manufacturer, helping them understand the design and set up a manufacturing process that produces quality, (3) keep good records of the quality you get so you can spot problems, and then (4) keep working on 1, 2, and 3 as long as you are manufacturing the goods. There is a large body of manufacturing engineering dealing with quality and how to get it. But it's work, and not a quick buck.

Western businessmen have seen the Chinese as a source of cheap labor, and have demanded the cheapest junk that could be made. What you're using as examples are not what the Chinese would themselves choose to make, necessarily. They are what the western buyers demanded, thinking - correctly, as it turns out - that their western customers would buy the cheap stuff and make them more money.

A post saying that "Chinese stuff is junk" is an admission that the poster either doesn't know what is really going on, or doesn't care and has some xenophobia or partisanship going. Or just likes piling on to a popular gripe.

So:

"Chinese made products is that the Chinese in general seem to always go for the quick buck and the bait and switch.."

Western businessmen in general seem to always go for the quick buck and the bait and switch and have taught the new Chinese entrepreneurs that this is what sells in the west.

The big difference is that the products are not made to last, and have little or no parts support.

Western businessmen have always had a leaning to this - yes?

BUT people keep buying horrible Chinese Amps. With no parts support....(especially Transformers)

People keep buying them. When this stops, the amps will improve, because the businessmen demanding cheap junk will quickly stop hemorraging money. And they'll provide parts support if they see a way to make money with it.

It costs twice as much, there is no bargain, because it's made to break, and made to be non-serviceable.

See "manufacturing in the USA in the 1970s-1980s".

AND there are a lot of China Manufacturers trying to hide the fact...that the product is Chinese.
"Designed in West Germany" it says on the amp...
"Designed in England" it says on the amp...
BUT it's just another misrepresentation, to hide the fact...that it's really made in China.

The Chinese are selling the Western businesses what they demand. If the buyer says to print "Created by the hand of a loving God" on it, it will get so printed. The people commissioning the manufacturing run send the artwork. WHO told them to print "Designed in England" on it?

[minim]

Chuck, I like the points you raise.

But should China be the punching bag? Didn't our governments allow our markets to become flooded with cheap goods from whichever countries? We gladly consume what they offer.

Anyhoo, I'm no economics guru, so I should regulate.

Peace

[Alan0354]

The only thing I don't like about Chinese made products is that the Chinese in general seem to always go for the quick buck and the bait and switch....they will make you the perfect parts for a quote or samples, and then when you make the order, they skimp out in some way to make more money, and you get a substandard part. They don't seem to have the history in their culture to build the best products....they want to build the cheapest and quickest, and are more concerned about profits and customers right now than profits and customers long term. In a level playing field, that approach will lose because people will go for the higher quality, longer lasting product every time....but with the labor costs so much lower over there, they still have their portion of the market. Eventually as their wages rise, that will change and they will either have to increase their quality, or they will lose business.

Greg

Agree and disagree. As a Chinese and knowing quite a few from China, I don't like them. They are more selfish and always think they are smart and others are dumb. They want to take advantage of others. This thanks to Mow and the communist.

Disagree in the sense that China is in a way a very young country technology wise. Look at Japan in the 60s and S Korea in the 80s. We all laughed at their stuffs..........tin can, garbage.........Their cars were junk. How about now? Takes time for them to get in the game. Remember the days when Japanese cars were tin cans, unsafe, now they beat us from head to toe on safety, need I talk about reliability? Korean cars failed so bad in NHTSA and IIHS crash tests just 5 or6 years ago. Look at their record now.

Mow killed too many of the intelligent people back in the days, takes time to replenish the gene pool and change attitude. Most of the people there are still peasants, need time for them to change. When the older generation dies off, things will get better.

Let's just say, you get cheap components, you can always change it out. I used to like to buy some of the food products from China because of my childhood days in Hong Kong ( not China at the time). I stop buying any food made in China. Let that be a warning!!!!

[soundguruman]

I like the points you raise.

But should China be the punching bag? Didn't our governments allow our markets to become flooded with cheap goods from whichever countries? We gladly consume what they offer.

Anyhoo, I'm no economics guru, so I should regulate.

Peace

Well as I said before earlier, there are exceptions.

But generally, China is manufacturing Cheap Junk.
That is accurate, according to the stuff that we bought from China...

Quite frequently, we go out of our way, to avoid products made in China.

Punching Bag?
Well, just make better products, and make them so they last a long time.
AND support them with replacement parts.
Then we will probably say better things.