why bother?

[Chuck H]

BB King
Mark Knopfler
Dimebag
John Fogerty
Tom Scholz
Albert King
Ty Tabor (Kings X)
All use SS gear MOST of the time. Many others too.

And many pros use SS some of the time...
Alan Holdsworth
Clean tones on most early Metallica recordings
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Andy Summers
Rev Billy
etc...

I think it harkens to two things. One is Enzo's point above. A player will use what they're familiar with to make their art. Another is a point that I've made many times to some of Stan's posts. Good players, true artists will find something musical in whatever they play. And they're always looking for new sounds and textures to create with.

I don't think the balance of power has shifted to SS gear for guitar players yet. Thank your God. But it certainly has for every other sort of audio gear. And digital technology will continue to make dents in the tube foothold. On a side note, tube amps aren't very "green". They use a tremendous amount of power for the watts they produce. That might even come into play before the saga ends. I think, logically, it really is a matter of time. How much is very hard to predict.

[dmartn149]

If players are getting what they want out of the gear, it will become popular among players. The listening public doesn't know or care.
I heard one of those Fractal systems in use a once, and I thought it sounded good enough that I had a look around the stage to see what the guitarist was playing through, then looked it up on the internet when I got home. I'm not trying to "sell" these systems. I'm just saying that if it sounds good, then it is good. Why worry about the technology behind it.

[Mick Bailey]

Guitarists are still wanting something that sounds like.... (amp name here). DSP will come to maturity when a DSP amp can stand up and be counted for the sound it produces on its own and go down in history with the 'classics'. The problem for me is they're trying to sound like something else, and that something else is the genuine article.

[loudthud]

Can anybody venture a guess as to the details of the amp used in the clips I posted in this thread: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t35493/

[Alan0354]

Guitarists are still wanting something that sounds like.... (amp name here). DSP will come to maturity when a DSP amp can stand up and be counted for the sound it produces on its own and go down in history with the 'classics'. The problem for me is they're trying to sound like something else, and that something else is the genuine article.

You nail it.

[Alan0354]

I think I'm going to stay out of the famous guitarist, I am not an historian and I am really not very interested in playing guitar any more. Kind of regret I brought up EVH and steer the thread into totally off subject.

I am not truly convinced Tubes absolutely sounds better. After I quit in 79, I was asked to play for the Chinese TV band mainly for Christmas and occasionally backed up some famous singers from Hong Kong and Tawan. I sold my Twin and ended up using a cheap SS Yamaha as distortion amp and still used the A/B pedal and use a big peavey as the clean amp. The Yamaha sure sounded pretty good cranked. One time I had it to 10 in a big gig, when we play one of the rock song, my bandmaid said "is it for real"!!! That's how good it was.

BUT, we don't design amps for ourselves, at least we all hope we can sell amps. If consumer want tubes, we do tubes!!! Right?

I'll be right at home with SS circuitry and that's what I've been doing all these years. Now I am swimming to learn ins and outs of tubes!!!

[Enzo]

I admit I have no idea what amp you used, LT.

Guitarists are still wanting something that sounds like.... (amp name here).

Depends on the guitarist. Your average guitarist is not Carlos Santana, your average guy plays local gigs playing cover tubes. His tones need to be OK, not exact replicas. So the "real thing" changes song to song. Good luck nailing the Van Halen sound with a real 5E3, or that Wes Montgomery tone with a real 5150 or Marshall. But with one amp modeler, he can get all those sounds and more.

I like a good slab of prime rib, or maybe pork tenderloin, but as long as my hamburger tastes OK, I am happy even though it isn't prime rib. A guy doesn;t buy a Line6 instead of a Marshall to sound like Marshalls, but he might buy it to be able to get a Marshall sound now and then.

[Chuck H]

A guy doesn;t buy a Line6 instead of a Marshall to sound like Marshalls, but he might buy it to be able to get a Marshall sound now and then.

And to take this to it's logical conclusion... Since the guy already bought an amp, that's the amp he'll use. When on stage, recording, practicing, etc. And as this happens more and more tube amps will sell less and less until one day one of the big manufacturers stops marketing them. A lingering boutique industry will survive for a while, but tubes will succumb to time and pressure like anything else. Two things that indicate to me that it'll be a slow demise:

Les Paul and Stratocaster guitars still fly off the shelves. Players have a natural desire for known classics and I expect that mentality to keep trickling over into amps as well.

Tubes are still used for a lot of electronics here and abroad. As long as they're around people will be interested in using them for audio purposes because of their particular qualities.

The tube amp industry won't crash and burn in the wake of digital technology. It'll just get older, more tired and less frisky until it would rather sleep than get it on with Mrs. Market. Then it'll eventually pass away in it's sleep and be buried in a pine box with only a few mourners.

[km6xz]

Alan, I think you are conflating sales appeal and sound or playing. Businesses that are successful are not made from someone coming up with something and others making them a success. Business, marketing, planning, manufacturing expertise etc make a business out of novel ideas but ideas have very little value in themselves. Everyone has ideas but they mean nothing. Execution means something and is harder and rarer than ideas.
If someone is a good player, it does not follow that they should be in music business, they are different fields with different criteria for success, and require different skills. Although a good cook is often complimented with a comment "you are so good, you need to open a restaurant" which makes no sense and the fastest way to lose a lot of money is for a good cook to open a restaurant. Good food and good restaurant business are two different subjects and one person seldom has the skills or temperament to succeed in both. The skills needed are not even very closely related. The person who should open a restaurant is one who has a passion for the business aspects of running a restaurant.
Same with small start ups in electronics. The success or familiar will depend on non-electronics skills more than engineering skills. If you want your device to sell well, license it to a manufacturer who's business is making and promoting devices to a large market. Sure, there are a few exceptions but overall, the odds are very poor that a designer of some device will make a success of building and selling the item
The reason I mention all this is that you seem to think there is some path that you need to follow and you then join the big leagues. Successful actors, musicians are rare in that they have some talent in the craft but they also have a talent of marketing, promoting and creating a promotable image for themselves. You do not have to "kiss ass" to the bigwigs, you have to have a better business plan and ability to execute it, and be able to constantly refine and fine tune it. Knowing your potential customer base and their buying trigger points is as or more, important than the original good idea.

[olddawg]

You could argue that U2 had a huge influence. It seems in the modern context people play their effects as instruments more than just being guitarists. And in that context you don't even have to be a good guitarists. Watch Palladian and see how many SS amps are in the back line of major groups. I gig all of the time and always have young people coming up and saying it's refreshing to see a guy that can play. They say it's a forgotten art, lol. I know that isn't true. Kids learn to play excellently off of YouTube nowadays.

[Chuck H]

Although a good cook is often complimented with a comment "you are so good, you need to open a restaurant" which makes no sense and the fastest way to lose a lot of money is for a good cook to open a restaurant. Good food and good restaurant business are two different subjects and one person seldom has the skills or temperament to succeed in both. The skills needed are not even very closely related. The person who should open a restaurant is one who has a passion for the business aspects of running a restaurant.

Been there. Most fun I ever had losing money Honestly. Some of the best of times and I never worked harder in my life. I was handy and creative enough to keep startup costs low and smart enough to know I was failing as a restaurateur. I lost about 8K in a year. Not bad if you look at how it often goes. I had such a good time I almost consider it money well spent

[minim]

But Eddy just re-hashed the tapping that Andy Powell was using years before. He never claimed it was his own idea.

There are heaps of guitarists since Eddie that have wowed and amazed me. I personally wonder though if anyone has had such an impact on the scene since, stylistically. One of the things in Eddie's favour was that he did what he did in the context of a band playing some radio-friendly "pop-rock", and therefore reached the masses (guitarists and non-guitarists alike). Although he included techniques already recorded by some, he fused all his influences and creativity into an explosive, unadulterated, extroverted expression of himself, and critically, derived a fresh (i.e. non-vintage) sound from his equipment. Someone was going to do this eventually, and it happened to be Eddie.

I'm not an Eddie-worshipper. Anything after 5150 I don't particularly care for. I'm just gonna put it out there...No one's had such a multi-faceted image/style/persona/popularity since EVH. Maybe SRV, although he was pretty firmly rooted in the context of blues.

[Alan0354]

Alan, I think you are conflating sales appeal and sound or playing. Businesses that are successful are not made from someone coming up with something and others making them a success. Business, marketing, planning, manufacturing expertise etc make a business out of novel ideas but ideas have very little value in themselves.

It is business. the best guitar player, musician, amp do not mean anything. It's when you become well know in lameman and everyone knows about it, then you change the trend and move the trend. So many great guitarist and musician, but they are respected only by the insider. You can call it success by itself. But until you can make a tinny bopper calling your name, it's not big in my book. It is superficial, but that's life. Is Elvis the best singer, is Clapton really the best guitarist, is EVH really that good? I think I can name much better guitar players. But it's Clapton, EVH that move the trend and that's where it counts. In the next few decades, people will remember Clapton, Hendrix, EVH and Santana. I doubted people will even know McLaughlin, Demeole, Satriani, Vai etal. These are great guitarist, but................

Beatles is very primitive by all standard. But they were the first the made the girls screams, they made the small 4 men combo hip. There were combos before, but nobody had the influence of Beatles. It did help they wrote fantastic songs.

If it is not for Michael Jackson, you really think EVH would have been 1/4 as famous?

Ultra talent comes but once in decades, the rest are timing where you are in the right place at the right time. EVH got the goods and he captured the right wave with Jackson!!!! Jackson is once in a century telant next to Beatles............lastly great guitarist are dime a dozen!!!! I am just so glad I quit. I think I was quite good in 1978 standard, you can listen in post #13, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at judging with 1978 standard. But what did that worth? NOTHING!!! Unless you can write songs, guitar playing is nothing. Honestly, I don't even listen to jams. It's nothing, you can have all the feeling and expression. It's the song, the song. You can write a song like the beatles in 64 and only play guitar with two fingers, still, you'll be much better off than EVH the 2nd!!!! It's the song.

Look at Santana, he knew guitar was not going to bring him to the top of the world. In the 2000s, he paired up with young singers, co-wrote songs and got the Grammy!!! This is all marketing on top of his great playing.

[Chuck H]

If it is not for Michael Jackson, you really think EVH would have been 1/4 as famous?

Ultra talent comes but once in decades, the rest are timing where you are in the right place at the right time. EVH got the goods and he captured the right wave with Jackson!!!! Jackson is once in a century telant next to Beatles...

I can only touch on how much I disagree with the above statements by saying that EVH earned his place long before he worked with Michael Jackson and when he is remembered in history no one will remember his work with Michael Jackson. As to the Beatles compared with Jackson, well, Michael was a brilliant performer and showman with good hooks that enjoyed great commercial success. The Beatles were transcendent of all that went before and came after. The historic mark Jackson made on the entertainment world will be measured in dollars as a footnote here and there. The historic mark of the Beatles has been and will continue to be measured in consideration of their art in volumes.

And I thought commenting on my restaurant venture was off topic!?!

[Alan0354]

I can only touch on how much I disagree with the above statements by saying that EVH earned his place long before he worked with Michael Jackson and when he is remembered in history no one will remember his work with Michael Jackson. As to the Beatles compared with Jackson, well, Michael was a brilliant performer and showman with good hooks that enjoyed great commercial success. The Beatles were transcendent of all that went before and came after. The historic mark Jackson made on the entertainment world will be measured in dollars as a footnote here and there. The historic mark of the Beatles has been and will continue to be measured in consideration of their art in volumes.

And I thought commenting on my restaurant venture was off topic!?!

Jackson song writing and dancing are legendary, not just his performance. His money making is legendary. Believe me, people will remember Jackson long long after they totally forget EVH. You don't look at guitar playing only, look at the whole picture, it's the songs.

Believe me, I don't judge by my liking, I don't like both. Particular Jackson that got away molesting the kids. Straightly about the contribution to the music scene. Before I was talking about influential as guitarist, but Beatles and Jackson is in a different league regarding to influential in the music scene. Clapton, Hendrix, Santana EVH etc pail compare to these two in influential to the modern day music scene.

There comes a point that you just let the topic float where it goes. This is a forum, people express their opinions.