What makes a good tube amp a good tube amp and bad tube amp a bad one?

[Chuck H]

I fully agree that it's a great amp. An instant classic the day it was made (though some incline that the circuit is a rip off of the slo100). And I actually love wanker tone for home practicing. It's when I'm actually in a mix that I realize the folly. I love high-ish gain to be sure, but in a mix I always seem to prefer the availability of a very wide range of player controlled dynamics. Trying to design an amp that gives me both has been the bane of my existence and the goal that inspires me at once My current amp is pretty good. There are a couple of commercial models that are also better than average at this balancing act. The 5150, to me, doesn't seem to be one of them. Of course I'm never troubled by their sound when others are playing through them. They always sound great. Just not my amp is all.

[Gingertube]

A guitar amplifier is a musical instrument in its own right. If you judge an amp the same way as you judge an instrument then you are on the right track.
Cheers,
Ian

[jamesmafyew]

There are a couple of commercial models that are also better than average at this balancing act. The 5150, to me, doesn't seem to be one of them.

Right on. It's like asking an M-1 Abrams tank not to leave tracks on your lawn. And funny that you mention how 'wanker tone' is good for home practice -- I love practicing on the 5150 for this very reason. I'm not a death/thrash metal player, but I love playing death metal on a 5150, and what better way to build hand strength than training for the shred olympics?

[olddawg]

I don't know where you old guys are playing where you can use a 5150 or anything like that anymore. This is coming from a guy that played Marshall stacks and Hiwatts in my youth. Nowadays I have to try to get a "cranked" out of a small amp (I hate modeling amps live) or the sound guys go apeshit in most venues unless it's a HUGE venue. I mean half the time I have a dimed 5 watt VJ and I hear the talkback, "you gotta bring that down! " Maybe it's a West Coast thing and there are exceptions in LA. But it ain't like the old days. And there is nothing worse IMHO than a 100 watt amp with the master on less than 1 and the pres on 10, lol. Half the time I'm using an attenuator on even small amps. I prefer my 18 watt Marshall/ AC 15 variant, but it's just too loud for most situations and attenuating too much craps it out.

[jamesmafyew]

In my experience (~1000 shows in 22 countries), the larger the venue, the more the sound guy freaks out about controlling the stage volume --- because the PA is orders of magnitude more complex for large venues or outdoor stages. Or countries that have a maximum decibel limit, like France and Italy. I use a LOT of power and huge stage volume, which is part of the sound (though I don't use a 5150 live), but it's the smaller venues where the sound guy is less likely to care. In many cases, they're happy to just send the amps to the drum wedge and let the cabs fill the house by themselves. I love that.

Though that said, the west coast of the USA is particularly bad for snobbish/persnickety/totally inept sound guys, and LA is the worst of anyplace in the world.

[Leo_Gnardo]

the west coast of the USA is particularly bad for snobbish/persnickety/totally inept sound guys, and LA is the worst of anyplace in the world.

But they all went to Mixing School - Guitar/'Bass/Audio Institute of Technology or whatever, and have degrees to prove how smart they are.

[olddawg]

Though that said, the west coast of the USA is particularly bad for snobbish/persnickety/totally inept sound guys, and LA is the worst of anyplace in the world.

Lmfao... Lots of idiot posers out there for sure. And... There are fewer and fewer clubs that play anything but DJs. It's like the dico revolution all over again. The ones that are left feature Mumford clones and reggae clones and freak out if there is an aggressive guitar in the mix.

[jamesmafyew]

But they all went to Mixing School - Guitar/'Bass/Audio Institute of Technology or whatever, and have degrees to prove how smart they are.

Which is of course precisely the problem. They all learned that there is only one right way to mix a rock band -- huge vocals chewing the audience's faces off, totally inaudible guitars, booming and indistinct rumble for the bass, and a kick and snare drum. Guitar players wanting to be heard at all gets in the way of that, and they have no idea how to adapt to any situation other than the textbook case. They're unable to conceive that two elements might actually share a portion of the audio spectrum, and they give 100% of the headroom from 200-4000Hz to the vocals.

[Chuck H]

It's been a long time since I gigged, but...

I always ran as you describe. My own amps as the main generators for the guitar in the mix. Only way to go. More recently I do notice sound guys much prefer small amps. They don't even know what to do with a real amp made to cover the venue on it's own. They act like you just handed them a turd on a hotdog bun. What you don't want to happen is to play a show where there is no sound guy so you decide to cover the venue with your amp but you only have a 15 watt amp and it's a 50 watt venue. Been there. No available channels on the house PA. @#!%

[Audiotexan]

A guitar amplifier is a musical instrument in its own right. If you judge an amp the same way as you judge an instrument then you are on the right track.
Cheers,
Ian

FTW! Amazing how such simplicity says so much.
Kinda like a great tube amp. (Damn skippy I'm biased. HA!)

[olddawg]

It's been a long time since I gigged, but...

I always ran as you describe. My own amps as the main generators for the guitar in the mix. Only way to go. More recently I do notice sound guys much prefer small amps. They don't even know what to do with a real amp made to cover the venue on it's own. They act like you just handed them a turd on a hotdog bun. What you don't want to happen is to play a show where there is no sound guy so you decide to cover the venue with your amp but you only have a 15 watt amp and it's a 50 watt venue. Been there. No available channels on the house PA. @#!%

Happened to me at the HOB. I couldn't believe it.

[Tooboob]

Someone will suggest "Oh OK, but we can all agree on XYZ, can't we?" And i have to point out there are pornography sites not only for "pretty women" but also sites for 500 pound blubbery ones, and skinny "heroin chic" types. There are sites for leg men, and there are sites for naked amputees. Oh and pregnant ones too. So, no, we can;t all agree.

Uh... How do you know that?

[olddawg]

It's been a long time since I gigged, but...

I always ran as you describe. My own amps as the main generators for the guitar in the mix. Only way to go. More recently I do notice sound guys much prefer small amps. They don't even know what to do with a real amp made to cover the venue on it's own. They act like you just handed them a turd on a hotdog bun. What you don't want to happen is to play a show where there is no sound guy so you decide to cover the venue with your amp but you only have a 15 watt amp and it's a 50 watt venue. Been there. No available channels on the house PA. @#!%

Another thing that happens is they stick a vocal mic on my amp from the last band mix (maybe even the last evening's mix) and don't pull me out of the monitor. The next thing I know I'm melting the faces off of everyone else in the band for the whole first set and they are all pissed at me and my loud ass 5 watt amp. Then try to explain what happened to none technical people (like a drummer or a lead vocalist). "I don 't know man, all I hear is loud guitar, it's your pedals!" (Yeah I recently played with a singer who was convinced that a Bad Monkey could make a VJ louder than a Marshall Major, lol) I ran sound professionally for years. I keep my mouth shut. Maybe it's the type of venue I'm playing nowadays, but I rarely see a sound guy that understands his board at all.

[Audiotexan]

Maybe it's the type of venue I'm playing nowadays, but I rarely see a sound guy that understands his board at all.

Wow. If that ain't the truth. I ran sound for a band with 8-10 folks in it (horn section, keys, guitars, bass, two singers, drummer), and I was shocked that not one had any kind of clue about the importance or effects of signal flow. Especially the guitarists/keyboardist. Usually those two spots are more prone to being technically inclined than the others IME.

But yeah, I've been in spots that seemed more like they paid someone to come in, set up a basic rig, and then the owner just tossed whatever waiter that was off for the night behind the board. =(

[Chuck H]

Then try to explain what happened to none technical people (like a drummer or a lead vocalist). "I don 't know man, all I hear is loud guitar, it's your pedals!"

I'm going to say this out loud... All guitar players with good tone understand sound engineering better than the other members of the band. There, I said it.

I love drummer jokes. Such as "What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians?... A Drummer! Yuk yuk.

Then there's the one I wrote (and tell). What's the difference between a drummer and a monkey?... One lives in the jungle beating on logs and rocks. And the other is a moron!