What can we do now that the guys in the Golden Age would have done if they could?

[Justin Thomas]

I think it's a good idea, but I just totally like my tube amps... For the masses, yes. But for us oddballs, gimme my old grungies. I'm not really wanting to sound like a Mesa, a Twin Reverb, or a Marshall half-stack, or a 5E3, or any of the other modls in every modeling amp... I don't know who made that profiling amp (Kempler?) but it didn't quite capture the magic of my Concert. It's all very good up to a certain point, but when you want to deviate from the popular, you can't get what you want from modeling. The lther thing is, who gets to decide which particular amp specimens of each model are "best? I still say the ones that players enioy and that make them play insteadnof twiddlingknobs or buttons are still best!

Now, as a profitable business venture, I think it's quite feasible if done right. It's just not for me, and probabaly for most of you all here. We build and hack and tramsform because we DON'T want to sound exactly like everyone else! It' why I like using scavenged parts to build "clones" of amps. Guaranteed individuality.

Justin

[Justin Thomas]

Yo Mick,

I did see one time a "boutique" transistor PA from the 60s. Boutique by standards of true PTP, discrete components, no PCB, etc. It was the same one the Carpenters supposedly used. It was really warm, sure it was a bit fuzzy, but flattered just about everything we plugged into it. Of course it won&t do an 80K seat stadium concert, but for what it was, it was awesome, amd a real work of art on the inside. But to see all those tramsistors mounted PTP with flying leads and a few terminal strips... damn!

Justin

[J M Fahey]

Yo Mick,

I did see one time a "boutique" transistor PA from the 60s. Boutique by standards of true PTP, discrete components, no PCB, etc. It was the same one the Carpenters supposedly used. It was really warm, sure it was a bit fuzzy, but flattered just about everything we plugged into it. Of course it won&t do an 80K seat stadium concert, but for what it was, it was awesome, amd a real work of art on the inside. But to see all those tramsistors mounted PTP with flying leads and a few terminal strips... damn!

Justin

FWIW I used to be a "Boutique" Amp Maker in Argentina from late 60's to the 80's ... the SS kind at that.
Didn't use terminal strips because I hated them but all the one-offs were built on eyeletted boards, á la Fender style, simply because I was used to that.

No problem at all, layout was quick and simple (perfect for one-offs) and I even managed to put Op Amps in them.

Not DIP, of course, but these, where I could spread their legs enough to fit standard eyelet spacing, meet the metal RC741 in all its glory:



Here's an eyelet board 200W RMS amp I built in 1972 ... still working !!!!



So yes, PTP and its variants can be used in SS builds with no problems.

[g1]

Are those 40+ yr. old filter caps in there?

[GregS]

Well, yes and no. The issue is (at least IMO) that most of those 'very high quality' products are of foreign origin (hence the low cost due to ongoing "child/slave" labor issues).

So I don't really feel that's a fair 'across the board' statement.
If you took that same idea and applied it to US only made items (ca. 1940's/50's/60's) even when we were at our 'peak' in manufacturing *very high quality* items, the cost was reflective of folks that earned decent wages.

When I made that "quality" statement I was thinking specifically of guitars. I have been playing since the 70's. I am not young. I'm well aware of what equipment has been available and how affordable it was or wasn't throughout time. Back in the 70's, 80's there was far less choice than today and a good quality guitar was very expensive (in the currency) of the time. It is not only overseas made guitars that are a lot more affordable. Guitars made in North America are as well with some from the major manufacture as low as $1000 now. Godin makes great guitars for well under $1000 in Canada and the US. The modern manufacturing methods I was referring to were more along the lines of computer guided routing machines etc. - not child and slave labour. Actually, affordable good quality PA is now also available from companies like Yorkville and are made in Canada.

Modern amps are a different story. The affordable ones are not high quality and not built to last. That's why I design and build my own amps from scratch. It's the only affordable way to get amps "made like they used to be" and they will outlast me.

Greg

[Alan0354]

Ha ha, I think the ones with golder ears is the one that manage to get a famous guitarist to use your amp!!! Sound is so individual and people tend to follow the ones they idolized. So whether you think your amp sounds good or not is really not that important. So golden ears is marketing!!!.....and luck. I know a friend named D Allen, he wind some awsome pickups. But do you know how much time he runs around meeting musicians, paying over $3000 to get a spot in NAMN to promote his products? Carlos Santana made Mesa and PRS. I tried both and I don't particular like neither.

[Chuck H]

I tend to agree on the Mesa products. But that's just a matter of taste. An awful lot of people actually like the way they sound, the company continues to stay in front of marketing trends and they have great customer support.

As to PRS... I've played a few. It's impossible for me not to like them. A timeless, all genre design with simple, useful features. Good balance, comfy neck without a clunky heel and typically very high quality fit and finish. I don't own one and there are probably ten guitars I would sooner buy, but not because they're better.

[kkregsg]

Tooboob, a question on your #4: what is the "easy correction" for SS rectification you refer to? I'm working on learning SS rectification, so any info you you might share would be appreciated. This change is the first thing that popped into my head when I read the original post.

[g1]

what is the "easy correction" for SS rectification you refer to?

A "sag resistor" is often used in SS rectified guitar amps to simulate the effect of a tube rectifier. This may be what he is referring to as it is very simple.

[SpareRibs]

Hello,
I agree with Chuck H about PRS guitars, I really like the discontinued SE models. The one thing that turns me off about the current models is the amount of time and labor that goes into the finish, which adds nothing to the quality of the sound, and yet is tacked on to the price.
I agree with Enzo as far as getting rid of tubes. If as much research and development had been put into (at the time) new technologies a tube amp may have gone by the way.

[Alan0354]

I am changing the subject a little and talk about guitar. I used to believe that the popular expensive brands guitars sounds better, that they have secrets to make their guitar sound special. I have a vintage Gibson 75 Les Paul, I used to own a 60s strat. I have two American Strats from 97 and 2000. Then I come into possession of a Squire strat, and Chinese Strat copy and a Mahogany Agile. I have all D Allen pickups in the strats. I gone through test after test after test for like 3 years. I can assure you there is absolutely no difference in sound quality inherent to the made of the strat. It's is 90% on the pickups and some on the basic configuration of the guitar like bridge, neck wood etc. But given the same construction, it's 100% from the pickup.

This is something that I am absolutely surprised and sad as I own the two AM strat and the cheap copy are on loan. I want so much that the AM strat sounds better. But they are not. The Chinese copy strat is so cheap, the action is not as good, but the Chinese Squire held up in every respect against my Am strat.

One thing people seldom talk about. The position of the pickups in respect to the strings length. If the pup just move 1/4" closer to the bridge or to the neck, the sound changes dramatically because it pickup different harmonics along the strings. That can also attribute to the difference of sound between two very similar guitars.

Back to PRS, I am sure it's a good guitar, I never own one, but I tested a few. I don't believe they sound any better than Gibson or other well copied Gibson. The Agile is copy of something like SG type. It sure sounds good with the D Allen P90 set. And the finish is every bit as good as Gibson. I owned 3 Gibsons and still have the LP. They are very good quality. My problem with Gibson is they are very fragile. You drop the Gibson, you crack the neck/head area and the the neck/body joint. I broke my SG at two places. That's where PRS is superior. The head is not angle as steep so the wood grain is more continuous and stronger.

Bottom line, it is my believe that you pay for the finish of the guitar, not the sound. You can get a Gibson Les Paul for a few hundred dollars that has no binding, mother of pearl inlay, not even shinny finish!! But it's going to sound every bit as good as the LP Custom with all the finishes. I am not surprised that you like the PRS SE just as much as the more expensive ones. If playing is the only thing that matters, get anyone that you like the action and the pickup configurations, then get the pickup you like and put them in.

[Chuck H]

Alan,
I agree for the most part, but there are some differences that make themselves apparent WRT the quality of wood, fit, finish and how all these things interact that can make for better sounding guitars. It's not all in the pickups as you claim. Many times I've seen two guitars of the same make and basic construction materials with the same pickups where one is "dark" and the other "bright". Dropping the same "preferred" pickups into both would not render them the same. I'll grant that MOST of the time the variance in two similar instruments is marginal. I'm just noting that it's not always. The better, more expensive instruments tend to be the best examples of their type OR marketed versions of what use to be the best examples of their type. That doesn't mean an exceptional sounding guitar can't emerge from a cheap factory. In fact it's entirely likely that a random marriage of joined wood resonances and hardware mass results in many cheap guitars that sound as good or even superior to upper end instruments that tend more toward a consistently above average tonal quality. My history is peppered with inexpensive guitars. I love to buy guitars that talk to me when I play them. I usually try out guitars that are VERY affordable. And guess what.?. There's no shortage of great sounding axes in the more affordable price ranges. Still, I know that if I buy an upper end instrument that it will sound AT LEAST good, if not always great. With cheaper instruments there are usually A LOT of mediocre or marginal sounding instruments for each fine accident that crosses the line. Submitted for your consideration.

Incidentally, your Les Paul is from what might be the least desirable era. Gibson was trying to cheap up and cash in. Something to consider when evaluating things like wood quality, fit and finish.

[Alan0354]

Yes, even if you test a few Am strat, they do sound ever slightly different, but they are all good enough. Yes, maple neck is brighter than rose wood neck, tremolo is a little different from hard tail. But I think if you take a Squire that has the exact same set up and compare to an Am strat, it's going to be very close if they have the same pup.

Don't get me wrong, I am superficial, I have to have the Am made strat. If I were to play, I would not use a cheap copy. I am just very surprised that the cheap copy sound so good. In fact the 3 cheap guitar belong to D Allen, he used those guitar to go to shows to demo his pups!!! That's how good they sound.

I know a friend that work in a custom guitar company called Modulus in the bayarea, he is specialize in painting and finishing. I even went to the company and he showed me the factory. When I asked him how they choose the wood, he kind of puzzled!!!! I think they choose more on the grain pattern, the weight rather than "tone". Those are expensive guitars and basses. They concentrate more on the gold plating, the clear coat finishing. That's what my friend is specialized, he's the only one that paint all the guitar. He even showed me the process of painting, buffing and doing many layers.

I think people completely broke the secret of guitar making, everyone make good sounding guitars, just what setup you want.

[R.G.]

As an aside, I ran into the "Reverend" brand guitars at several guitar shows. I can't say they're all this way, but all of the ones I have picked up off the show rack were beautifully set up (at least to my preferences) and playable right as they came. I have no connection with the company, just know the guitars and people from seeing them at the shows. I talked to them about this same issue. They said that they do spend a lot of time on setup at the factory. Seems to fit with the observations here.

[Chuck H]

Yes, tone woods are probably most often chosen for grain structure and weight. Add to that the criteria of no inclusions and uniformity. Basically, you want resonant properties and consistency. More expensive guitars will typically (or should be) made from more select wood. Does this always result in a superior sounding instrument? Nope. Wood is inconsistent and the margins for selection need to be flexible if enough material is to be found for making instruments in any quantity. So even though wood of more select nature is used you can still end up (and most often do) with an instrument where all the resonant properties of the different pieces just don't jive accentuate those resonances we find most pleasing. It's a very tall order. As I said, it's possible with the use of select woods to make consistently good instruments, but there's no guarantee of greatness. That still happens mostly by accident, sort of. It will, of course, happen more often when better woods and construction are used. So it's at least calculated to that extent. Cheap guitars using less select woods can still emerge with a good marriage of resonances that makes for a good or exceptional sounding instrument, but it's definitely more rare and more of an accident with many, many guitars produced that just sound like a random plank of wood with strings stretched across it. Which is what they are intended to be. Sellable, useable guitars. Finding a good or great sounding one is always a score.

How any of this relates to what modern lab coat types could be doing for the instrument/amp game is lost. Experiments (often successful) with alternative materials like carbon fiber, bonded resins and urethane foams have somewhat circumvented the inconsistency of wood allowing for more predictable results, though not yet as fine as the best sounding wood instruments. So maybe that's something that deserves more attention from us.?. Save the trees and make better sounding guitars!