Obsolete Electronics?

[Chuck H]

Yep. That was precisely my not-so-cleverly-disguised point. Clapton would sound more like Clapton through a Pignose than anyone else would playing through his actual rig.

That aside, I must admit: I like EC, but his "God status" is a mystery to me. I just don't see it. IMO, he's overrated. Let the sacking begin.

I'm actually not a huge fan. But I'd classify EC's work by saying that in a band, he makes it real. So pro it's silly. Now punctuate THAT with moments of greatness. No doubt he deserves the spotlight he's recognized in. I've never bought a show ticket and I probably wouldn't.

[soundmasterg]

I built an amp a couple years ago for a guy who asked me to build it. He wanted to use Mercury Magnetics transformers, so I said ok, you buy them and I'll put them in. The amp sounded fine when I got done building it, though it would have sounded just as nice with a Heyboer or ClassicTone or whatever. On the other hand, another guy I know had a power transformer fail on a Magnatone 260 and the only replacement available was from Mercury...that or rewind his existing one for even more money. My friend went with the MM transformer and his amp sounded better than with the original one in there so there you go. I won't spend MY money on them but if someone wants me to use them I will use Mercury transformers.

Greg

[J M Fahey]

You can faff around with the amp innards until the cows come home... or select speakers that are a closer match to what ol slow hands was using back in the day of Beano. I really don't think some "special" OT is going to be the key to that sound. Some KT66's might help.

FWIW a friend of mine who's a serious amp collector - owned a couple original BluesBreakers - told me his fave combination with modern gear was Marshall's reissue BB played thru Celestion Blue Bulldogs, the ones you find in Vox, also currently made. At the time he said this, he had EL34's in his 'Breaker because KT66's were so tall he couldn't put the back cover on, though he did admit the KT's gave him the more authentic tone. (Original BB's were 15" deep, reissues only 9" hence the lack of room for output tubes so tall they wouldn't let the chassis fit in the amp.) Also note, if you invest in new speakers, Bulldogs included, it will take a bunch of playing, or some special treatment you can read about elsewhere on this site, to break them in. When new the low end will sound a bit deficient and "tight", after break in the speakers loosen up a bit and deliver a more satisfying bass response.

Can I double like this?

Electronics are the easiest to reproduce elements (a 100k is a 100k, a .02uf is a .02uF and so on, slightly harder with tubes but still achievable) ; transformers same thing, no unobtanium copper by any means and similar iron can be found, just run some hysteresis curves; speakers *can* also be cloned, if done in good faith, please no substituting Epoxy glued wound on Kapton voice coils instead of original **much** lighter (and weaker ) "nail enamel" quality Nitro glues and plain "cartridge paper" (think heavy printer paper).

Not even Alnico is needed , voice coils do not know what is creating the magnetic field they swim in, just its strength; a friend of mine has a mechanically adjustable magnetizer and he routinely *under* magnetizes his ceramic speakers to old tired Alnico specs ... his speakers sound "right" fresh out of the packing carton .

Now, making a "reissue" 9" deep instead of original 15" ??????????????
Are they CRAZY or what ?
That alone modifies sound more than *any* electronics parts tweaking.

Dear uboat:

many thing the radio spares or drake ot's are made of pure unobtainiom

as said above I can't speak about original surplus Radio Spares iron , but if Jim used them, it's because they were cheap while still usable, and worst case can be measured to be *exactly* duplicated, no big deal, while Drakes (and Dagnalls) I have rewound and cloned by the ton, and no mystery sauce at all, just *well* made transformers, filled with good quality commercial iron available anywhere.

And transformers, unless extremely underrated or made out of tin can or car body quality steel (no kidding) which will filter out anything below 150Hz or above 6000Hz and maybe even have a 6 dB peak well within the Audio band, or NASA quality nickel steel iron, more interleaved than a phonebook, flat to 100kHz, which will let ugly grit through, most regular commercial OTs sound about the same, for obvious reasons: they are but flat "couplers" between tubes and speakers.

Flat and linear between 80Hz and 6000Hz with resonances above 15kHz?
Meaning Guitar Audio passes through unmolested?
Piece of cake.

If anything, being 20 something, unexperienced but enthusiast and trying to impress a 20ish (or late teen) girlfriend also helps to "sound good"
Oh, I remember the times

[uboat229]

Thanks again for all the comments... I do agree that perceived reality of a subjective memory can be very false....and further agree that so much of any sound is in the abilities of the musician...with that in mind, my twin brothers small box plexi had a different sound than my BB RI. Even at age 65-66 and 50 years of ear training and playing my ears are one of my most valued tools. Also have a business degree and have been responsible for spending decisions for millions of dollars over the years and can relate to Jim Marshalls cost concerns..so all your comments fit into my cost:benefit analysis. Before i make dollar decisions i tend to overthink everything...once i commit... i go....think ill hold off on the OT and go with cheaper options first...not going to make my cab 15'' deep...but will change filter caps...maybe some diff caps and resistors.... and see what happens... ive got celestion g12t75's in the box now and might even try some vintage jensen c12r's.....they are on my wall and sound awesome in my reverbo rocket II...

so another question.... do you think changing the choke would make a difference?

thanks again

Frankie uboat

[Dave H]

so another question.... do you think changing the choke would make a difference?

No, but the 'correct' cabinet depth would.

[Leo_Gnardo]

ive got celestion g12t75's in the box now and might even try some vintage jensen c12r's.....they are on my wall and sound awesome in my reverbo rocket II.

Those Celestions sorta are "heavy metal" speakers. I like 'em for some purposes but def. not "the old fashioned tone." OTOH the Jensens are classics with very light weight voice coils & cones - I'm sure tone will be hugely different and I hope more to your liking. I'd try the speaker swap before any cap/resistor/choke changes. One little worry, that the Jensens may pop when you really lean into the amp, as they are at the low power end of the range. Give it a go, take it easy on the volume, you may discover something very very good.

[mhuss]

You know, you probably could get a well-made correct sized cabinet from one of the usual suppliers for less than a set of MM iron. And you could reuse the Marshall badge.

[uboat229]

thanks Leo, Dave and mhuss.... one of the reasons i havent tried the c12r's is for exactly what your talking about Leo.... thought about the c12n's but i dont have any and hate to just pop the c12r's .... but that ampeg really honks....so.... maybe ill bite the bullet... get the bulldogs...too many warnings about the greenbacks in an open back cab.....cabinet depth is not much concern to me...clearly it would change the timbre but when you throw a sm57 in front ill focus other places first....especially when i think of rule of inverse squares....

OT: leo are you involved in welding? i noticed one of your posts on thermite welding....im a former sub builder and know much more about welding than amp building.

mhuss: im working in York in a couple weeks... near you?

thanks

Frankie uboat

[Leo_Gnardo]

OT: leo are you involved in welding? i noticed one of your posts on thermite welding.

No welding here, just a lot of soldering. I had a terrific Jr Hi science teacher (John Field) who introduced his students to a lot of stuff that would be considered dangerous these days. Lots of chemistry demonstrations, I'll leave to your imaginations dear readers. In college similar physics demo-lectures with the notorious Professor Harry Meiners.

Thanks uboat for making those subs right. Don't much hear about failures these days, at least in the USA fleet.

No harm having a play on those old Jensens, just take it easy on the volume. If I'm not mistook your Ampeg clips at about 20 watts, and a healthy JTM45 will do 30-ish. Of course more watts in both cases as you get into clip territory where things start sounding good for rock n roll. Heavier duty speakers, Jensen or otherwise, will have heavier voice coils & paper & naturally sound different from their light-duty brothers. One of my customers threw down big bucks for a 4x12 loaded with Blue Bulldogs. Sounded terrific with a 30-40W amp, and with 4 speakers to absorb the power not much chance of blowing one up. Good thing he gets a rock star paycheck when he tours - helps pay for good toys like this one. Similarly I always expected, if someone was to load up a 4x12 with lightweight Jensen C or P 12R or 12Q originals, that would sound fantastic. An affordable choice these days is the current Jensen's C12Q, I like those and the 10" version a lot and so do a lot of my customers.

Also keep in mind, you don't have to necessarily clip your amp to get a good tone out of those old Jensens you have. There's no harm in using an overdrive pedal to get crunch at a low volume. I promise, we won't tell anybody! Just had a case where the owner of an especially powerful late 70's Twin - 115 watts at clip ! - needed his crunch, and got very satisfied using a TS10 Tube Screamer to get just what he wanted. By my rough estimate he was only using 20 or so watts to get to his happy zone with the 'Screamer, much easier on the ears than the 150W he'd have to push the Twin to for a similar crunch tone. Bypass the TS, and there's all the "clean" anyone could ever want.

Try whatever you can get your hands on. Making your ears happy is what counts; we can only make suggestions. Since you're miking with an SM57, auditioning that way will have to be part of the process. It can be wearing on the ears (and back) to listen from the typical jam-up-to-the-grill location.

[tedmich]

No welding here, just a lot of soldering. I had a terrific Jr Hi science teacher (John Field) who introduced his students to a lot of stuff that would be considered dangerous these days. Lots of chemistry demonstrations, I'll leave to your imaginations dear readers. In college similar physics demo-lectures with the notorious Professor Harry Meiners.

Harry F. Meiners of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute? Cool beans! I guess it makes sense, you gotta roll a stone down a fairly steep hill for it to end up so "far out"

[Leo_Gnardo]

Harry F. Meiners of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute? Cool beans! I guess it makes sense, you gotta roll a stone down a fairly steep hill for it to end up so "far out"

How do we make that offtopic guy smile? Yes, that Harry F. Meiners. At the time with his assistant/sidekick Volker Paedelt (sp?). Harry stood on a chair behind the back row of the lecture hall, with a bowling ball suspended from ceiling center on a steel cable. He'd hold the ball up to his chin and let go. The ball swung across the room and off course came right back to point of origin & he caught it easily, demonstrating conservation of energy and pendulum action. Never once did he get schmacked in the mouth. He'd also burn resistors on purpose and all sorts of other hijinks. In the modern day the safety police would undoubtedly disallow his demo/lectures. OTOH the safety police could have a field day pointing out concrete steps that need replacement in front of college buildings, meanwhile the college Prez gets herself a free multimillion $$$ Adirondack getaway lodge. Just like USA politics, you know what's important - and it isn't the infrastructure. Oh well, back to the program in progress.

/

[g1]

I'm wondering how these guys compare pricewise to the MM transformers:
Merren Audio - Marshall Transformers



And guess where the founder was schooled? You got it, Rensselaer Polytech !!!!!!

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'm wondering how these guys compare pricewise to the MM transformers:
Merren Audio - Marshall Transformers


And guess where the founder was schooled? You got it, Rensselaer Polytech !!!!!!

Shhh! It's the "forgotten" hi tech school. Mostly because nobody can spell it right? Don't forget our slogan: "I awlays watned to bee a enj.. emgi... injun.. anjunior --- and now I are wun!" Everybody knows MIT, CalTech, Stanford . . . even WPI. This one, not so much.

They didn't forget themselves when it comes to tuition, sailed past the $60,000/yr mark a couple years ago. Costs a bunch to maintain that getaway lodge!

/ (put pulling pockets out of pants glum face thing here)

I hear Merren's got a good rep, but has a distinct dislike for Fender transformers. Wonder what that's about? Years ago another transformer wiz (Charlie Cortright) told me Marshalls tran's needed to be so big to make up for the sub standard steel they used. Doubtless, there's legends & opinions every which way in the transformer field.

[uboat229]

how bout prof errin corey.... he is more my speed..... any comments on marshall g12n65's?......i can get em cheap.... and da back ruptured building the tridents..and knees and shoulders...but it was not a job it was a mission (<former ist class nuke welder) i know the g12n's are cheapies but that might be just what i need...instead of slicing the g12t75's

uboat

[uboat229]

thanks leo for the comments on the g12n65's.... theres a pair on ebay for $50 but i will run what i have for now.....havent used a fuzz since i sold my old fuzz face...couldnt believe someone paid me $900 for it.... all i use now is my echoplex ep2.... nice preamp stage

Frank