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  • #16
    Loudthud and Trobbins have it correct.

    Ordinary silicon rectifier junctions like the 1N40047 and others not specified as specially fast recovery have the issue. Being majority and minority charge carrier junctions (for which, check on some semiconductor physics texts), the active part of the semiconductor material is full of charge carriers during conduction. When the voltage reverses and sets up the conditions for the junction to block current, it can't quit conducting until the charge carriers are swept out of the active region or neutralized by recombination. The time this takes is the the major component of the specified reverse recovery time.

    What is quirky is that the shutoff is not a smooth shutoff, but a nearly instantaneous stop when the charge carriers get swept out or neutralizes. It's this super-abrupt stop that shocks the inductance and capacitance of the wires and other parts connected to the diode junction into ringing as RF sources. You get this little spike of oscillation. It can be conducted or even radiated as a radio signal and picked up by the audio circuits.

    The pulses of RF happen at 2x the line frequency, or 8.6mS for 60Hz, 10mS for 50Hz. If this gets into the audio as pulses, they are amplified and put out as a pulse train at the same rate. The human ear is very good at picking out the repitition rate of pulses as a frequency on its own. The ear still hears the buzz that is where the majority of the energy is, but still perceives the pulse repitition rate as a hum at 120 (or 100) Hz.

    Capacitors do tune the ringing frequency of the parasitic inductances and capacitances, primarily running the ring frequency down so low that it doesn't radiate well, or as noted, tuning the ring to a frequency that is not well picked up by the rest of the circuitry. However, it is possible to put a resistor/capacitor snubber in that will not only run the frequency down lower but also eat the energy in the ringing, effectively spoiling the Q of the wires so that much less energy gets transmitted out. The only down side to snubbers as opposed to lowering frequency with just a cap is that the snubber style needs tuned to the actual wiring.

    Fast recovery, ultra-fast recovery, and FAST!! recovery diodes work by having such a short recovery time that there is much less energy in the pulse that excites the ring. I read a whole paper on this topic somewhere. I'll try to find it.
    Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

    Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

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    • #17
      OH.....OK...per usual, not what I "thought" at all.
      Thank You
      RG
      Loud
      Trob
      etc etc
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zquNjKjsfw
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMl-ddFbSF0
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiE-DBtWC5I
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472E...0OYTnWIkoj8Sna

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by nashvillebill View Post
        I'm curious, is the 1N5402 any faster recovery than a 1N4007?
        They are likely pretty close if tested under the same conditions. If looking at the data sheets, the 1N5402 probably measures three times slower, but that is because it was conducting three times as much forward current in the test. The test is usually performed at some fraction of the forward current rating, prehaps 50%.
        WARNING! Musical Instrument amplifiers contain lethal voltages and can retain them even when unplugged. Refer service to qualified personnel.
        REMEMBER: Everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school !

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        • #19
          Is this what you guys are talking about?
          Click image for larger version

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          That's at the anode of a 6SL7.

          I've been battling it for a while. Tried caps across the diodes, cap across the secondaries, humdinger pot, elevated heaters...
          The caps definitely changed the sound of the transient, but didn't make it any quieter. The humdinger helps, but not on every tube.
          Are there any other tricks to knocking down the spike?

          Comment


          • #20
            Not sure I have the proper terminology, but.....did you try a Single Fast Switching Diode.?
            Merlin suggests using just one of those on the.....what do you call it...Rectified/DC side of the diodes...before it hits the first Filter Cap, if you know what I mean.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zquNjKjsfw
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMl-ddFbSF0
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiE-DBtWC5I
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472E...0OYTnWIkoj8Sna

            Comment


            • #21
              Yes that is mains 2f spikes. General advise is unlikely to assist, given your efforts.

              Really need schematic and parts info and photo of PT, rectifier, first filter. Also really need photo of probe when measurement taken, showing proximity to PT etc - as trace may show noise pick up that is not actually there.

              By the way - can you hear anything?

              Comment


              • #22
                So, hylaphone, I'll guess from the scope pic that you're on 60Hz supply then? (thanks R.G. for telling us what ms time interval to look for ) In which case it seems to me that it is likely switching noise. Though I have no prior experience in the matter. I would try the faster switching diode as trem suggested. I don't know the formula, but different value snubbers might be worth experimenting with. But see the next paragraph...

                I remember a situation in Ca. where a new home owner community had all it's power regulated through what I assumed to be enormous FET switching units. It caused all manor of problems with audio and video devices in the homes. Have you checked your actual AC mains to see if the noise may be there?
                "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes 60Hz.. I'm already using UF4007 in a FWB.
                  Will try and post a schematic + pics later today...
                  In the meantime, I'll try a cap + pot in series across the secondary, maybe this can be "tuned" out....?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by hylaphone View Post
                    Yes 60Hz.. I'm already using UF4007 in a FWB.
                    Will try and post a schematic + pics later today...
                    In the meantime, I'll try a cap + pot in series across the secondary, maybe this can be "tuned" out....?
                    Don't forget to check for the spike on your AC mains. You may just need a power conditioner to plug the amp into.

                    From what I've read so far, this sort of noise shouldn't be present in a typical guitar amp because the time constant and small filter caps damp it out. What is the nature of this amp with the problem? Is it a guitar amp? Is it of typical power supply design? Are you certain there are no errors in how it is wired?
                    "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                    "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                    You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The secondary has a huge value filter cap.
                      That takes care of the big stuff.
                      Maybe you could try a small value cap in parallel to get rid of the little stuff (spikes).

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by hylaphone View Post
                        I've been battling it for a while. Tried caps across the diodes, cap across the secondaries, humdinger pot, elevated heaters...
                        Make sure the two AC wires from the PT to the bridge are tightly twisted and also tightly twist the two DC wires from the bridge to first filter cap. Take the DC power to the amplifier directly from the first filter cap + and - terminals. Don't make any other connections between the bridge and first filter cap except for the twisted wires (not even to chassis). Keep the twisted wires short and separate from all other wires.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Chuck H
                          > Have you checked your actual AC mains to see if the noise may be there?

                          Good one! There are all kinds of things on the AC power mains trying to grab power and as a sideline creating spikes. Other DC power supplies are especially bad, as are motors. Computer power supplies that do not use "power factor correction" are an example of an offender.

                          One really effective fix for power line noise is a constant voltage / ferro-resonant transformer. These take power from the mains and pump a huge resonant tank with it. The tank then provides the power to the secondaries. They're big, heavy, and expensive, but very effective. They get really practical when you need a lot of power, like for a band setup. A 2kW ferro would weight maybe 50 pounds, but provide clean power for a whole setup. For a single amp, not so practical.

                          Power line filters are really good for RF noise, not so much for lower frequencies. The inductances get out of hand.

                          Dave H
                          > Make sure the two AC wires from the PT to the bridge are tightly twisted and also tightly twist the two DC wires from the bridge to first filter cap. Take the DC power to the amplifier directly from the first filter cap + and - terminals. Don't make any other connections between the bridge and first filter cap except for the twisted wires (not even to chassis). Keep the twisted wires short and separate from all other wires.

                          Excellent advice. This targets radiated noise, both RF and magnetic-field-coupled. It works by minimizing the area of the conducting loop, making it a poorer antenna and a smaller magnetic coupling area. The twisting "sprays" magnetic field in all directions, but by doing so minimizes the field sent in any direction, and "spraying" the opposite-direction field from a turn or two away, helping cancel the sprayed field. Lower in any one direction, plus some cancellation.

                          Wires going from the rectifiers (and PT center tap) directly to the filter caps and NOT anywhere else also cuts down on conducted noise by making sure the rectifier pulses don't get converted into ground noise pulses in the wire resistance.
                          Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

                          Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thanks guys, lots of great ideas! Sorry to have hijacked the thread, but it is relevant to the OP...
                            Will follow up in a few days after I noodle around with this.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by hylaphone View Post
                              Thanks guys, lots of great ideas! Sorry to have hijacked the thread, but it is relevant to the OP...
                              Will follow up in a few days after I noodle around with this.
                              Not at all.
                              I was finished
                              Your post was very timely indeed.....and interesting as well.
                              good luck
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zquNjKjsfw
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMl-ddFbSF0
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiE-DBtWC5I
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472E...0OYTnWIkoj8Sna

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                (stumbled on a related thread) :

                                http://music-electronics-forum.com/t34483/

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