Right back to basics/ pg1 Qs.

[Sea Chief]

Sorry for being unclear, by kerrang I meant overdrive / distortion. The actual setting will depend on the guitar, amp, pedal, your taste. Maybe try halfway initially.
Sorry for complicating it by adding detail regarding the use of the guitar's tone control; however, I find that its use greatly improves the end result, and if I hadn't included that info at this point, you may have justifiably queried my reticence later.

Im quite sure it might have an effect.. but this is something different & to consider FAAAAAR in the future, once I can establish the basics of how I can achieve distortion and control it simply with a gtr vol knob; & I dont ask how its achieved in tecnical/ physics terms (as Id not understand a word) but simply and only: practically.

Im at a much more basic level for my Q here. Deliberately so.

I drive a car.. but I dont need to know the physics of each part the engine in order to use it, or ask how to best conserve my fuel for eg. Gtr amps are enormously confounding to me, as much as car engines I find even having built a few (amps not cars!).

[DRH1958]

Usually, you set your amp and pedal to what max.distortion you want for leads or whatever with your guitar volume up full. Then by turning down your volume on the guitar, the signal will clean up and then more lowering of guitar vol will lower the overall volume.
I would think all three scenarios you propose above will have the effect of cleaning up the sound first, then more lowering of the guitar vol will lower the total volume, although the first scenario might not be as pronounced as the second and third if the DS-1 is cranked full up. Any well designed tube amp dialed in for distortion will clean up with the guitar vol knob turned down. Having the DS-1 pedal added to the input should also do this, though maybe not as much. Some pedals clean up better than others. Get yourself an old used DS-1 and find out. They go for pretty cheap. And the amount of signal your guitar generates makes a difference. Humbuckers will be different because of the higher signal output. There are too many variables to answer your question in definite terms. The answer is in general terms. Your equipment will define exactly what happens.

EDIT: There were two other posts added as I was typing mine, so some repetition. If you don't understand it yet, read them again. Your question has been answered.

[Sea Chief]

Hi ChuckH. Ok so your opinion its only a tube amp cranked that can achieve the gtr-vol-down-distortion-down characteristic Im on about; But DaveH says yes the OD pedal will do this too. As ever an opposite of opinion slightly complicates things.

If only I could crank even the Champ (doesnt distort much anyway even at 10) but I just cant. Even with an attenuator with the Champ at max Id still get little distortion and itd probably still be OTT loud.

This is why I was using the fender SuperSonic 22 as an eg. The 'gain' channel 2 situation Im still wondering how, if the gain knobs are up giving distortion, the gtr vol will interact with this particular source of distortion. I wonder of anyone has such an amp, and they could simply tell me? Maybe I sell the whole flamin lot amps & gtr you see & buy one of these & a squier tele or something. But I want to find out how its channel 2 distortion interacts at normal levels (IE without taking out 4 houses) with the gtr vol.

The only way Im going to answer the Q it seems is if I go to a gtr warehouse place for a day have an OD pedal and a 2 channel valve amp like the above and find out.. tho Id not be able to crank an amp anyway Id imagine. (Not possible- nearest 50m away > 100m round trip just to find out).

[Sea Chief]

Hi DR1958- thats interesting thanks. Maybe I have overlooked OD pedlas then assuming they dont "clean-up" at all.. old ds-1 is an idea for a cheap find-out I guess.

Theres a big difference generally here I think. 'Just get a fat tube amp and crank it' is SO much easier a proposition in the US than the UK. Nr every house over there is detatched, it seems, & with a basement too. Ideal. Nr every house here in our crowded island is either adjoining, &/ or with neighbours only metres away, all without basements even if the walls are more solid. You dont know how lucky you are over there spacewise (tho of course this does manifest into the absurd like 12 lane highways, quite a few fatties, and buicks!).

[Sea Chief]

ChuckH- my brain just cant handle "variable operating conditions for the individual amplifier stages" etc. Im sure its ideal reading for many folks into the physics and tech side of things, but its just baffling to me. Very grateful for your efforts though but apologies as Im just not up to your level to be able to understand it.

If anyone has a fender supersonic 22, or something similar, and can tell me how well the gtr's vol interacts on its gain channel (with distortion dialed in with the gain knobs) Id be grateful. This will fill the gap Im trying to answer re. a 2-channel amp.

Any more eg's on the OD pedal vs amp-UP gtr vol interaction welcome.

[eschertron]

Hi DR1958- thats interesting thanks. Maybe I have overlooked OD pedlas then assuming they dont "clean-up" at all.. old ds-1 is an idea for a cheap find-out I guess.

Right. a DS-1 is NOT an overdrive pedal. It is a distortion pedal that puts those 'fizzy at any volume' diodes right there. That's why I suggested an OD (which may add some grit, but doesn't have to) or a booster pedal.

What a boost pedal can do for you - as Chuck said above - is drive the tubes in your champ (for ex) to the point where they produce distortion. And yes, even a 5W amp when it's clipping and making 5+ watts of audio power will be loud. If you're looking for clean-to-creamy at low volumes, you are making a compromise right there. That is not a compromise that the guitar heroes or yesteryear had to make. They used a whole amp to get the touch sensitivity and dynamics that you hear in your head.

If you are constrained to make distortion at living room levels, then you need to find a pedal that can do all of what you want. I think the guys at the musical mega-mart can help, as long as they clearly know what your needs and wants are.

[Mick Bailey]

You should be able to adjust amount of distortion of an OD pedal with the guitar vol if it's set up right....

The trouble with the DS-1 is there's too much gain even at the lowest setting and it keeps distorting even with the guitar rolled off. I've modded a few of these to drastically reduce the gain to enable better contol.

[Chuck H]

I'm sorry that I'm not addressing the specific questions but it's because even a small amount of and very basic understanding of the mechanisms involved should clarify the issue and is much simpler than analyzing the differences in the circuits you've presented. That would require a much more technical discussion.

You CAN get distortion variable with the guitar volume with a distortion pedal. Just not as good as with a tube amp. A clipping circuit requires drive signal high enough that one or more amplifiers cannot accurately reproduce it. Since the guitar is the first signal source it will always alter the amount of distortion and it is impossible with an analog system to to get the same level of distortion with the guitar volume on five as when it is on ten. In those cases where there doesn't seem to be much difference it is because those amplifiers or pedals are designed to clip even the smallest signal at some point in the circuit. There is, therefor, almost always a clipping wave form present.

Some distortion pedals, when set up properly (as Dave correctly describes) will allow you to turn the guitar volume down below the clipping threshold. It can work. The reason it doesn't work as well is complicated so strap in...

SS devices get louder until they clip and then abruptly flatten the wave form. So there is only a tiny margin where the signal is clean and there is notable distortion where the two tones are at similar volume. Complicating this is how a clipped signal SOUNDS louder than a clean signal. The addition of overtones and harmonics support the fundamental and our ears hear more sound. So it's pretty much impossible to get really good results unless quieter cleans and louder distortions are ok with you. Now, tubes don't have a hard line at the clipping threshold. They are better at doing what they do at variable operating levels. And the operating levels DO vary. As a tube amp begins clipping it's also drawing enough current to reduce voltages. This voltage reduction softens the crossover between clean and clipping and the tubes perform well with these differing conditions. A combination of things like reduced high end, softened attack envelope and a non linear gain curve as voltages get lower allow for the perception, and somewhat reality, that the tube amp is at a similar volume when it's clipping as it is when it's clean and a wider margin between the two states. That's why I've been pressing the importance of the variable operating conditions. SS devices can't operate this way and the current necessary to create these voltage anomalies in tube amps isn't present in SS amps. This is also why I mentioned tube preamps and high gain channels as being less capable of control with the guitar volume. With less power amp activity there is less variation in current and voltages and the sound and behavior will be somewhat more similar to the SS devices.

[DRH1958]

"Get a fat tube amp and crank it" was followed by "get an attenuator".
Sorry for your cramped living conditions over there, but if you want "that" sound and want to control the distortion with the guitar's vol, get an amp with a Master vol, dial in preamp distortion and dial the master back to an acceptable level and use the guitar's vol. That should work.

[Dave H]

The trouble with the DS-1 is there's too much gain even at the lowest setting and it keeps distorting even with the guitar rolled off.

Right, I see, I've never tried a DS-1. I have one of these. It's low gain and cleans up fine with guitar vol. Here's a demo -

Original Marshall Blues Breaker Pedal

[Sea Chief]

"Get a fat tube amp and crank it" was followed by "get an attenuator".
Sorry for your cramped living conditions over there, but if you want "that" sound and want to control the distortion with the guitar's vol, get an amp with a Master vol, dial in preamp distortion and dial the master back to an acceptable level and use the guitar's vol. That should work.

Oddly Ive had a few amps with MV but they either sounded unuseably nasty (Twin Reverb & a monster-watt Musicman combo/ clean amps really) or I didnt think of using the gtr vol interaction with its gainy sound eg my fender deluxe 85 SS back early 90's: actually prob the best amp Ive had for a quick but bit fizzy 'fender chimey clean' sound.

So, what is preamp distortion? Do you mean the gain 1/ gain 2 knobs are on a supersonic 22 amp for eg? are these gain knobs on channel 2 also referred to as 'preamp gain'?

[olddawg]

What works for a lot of people at CLUB VOLUME is this. A two channel tube amp with a dirt box and and OD pedal into the amp. Clean channel is clean unless you use the fuzz or the OD or both. Lots of overhead. The distortion channel will clean up with your guitar volume. The OD pedal will give you more balls with the distortion channel. The fuzz will ad more insanity to that. Of course there are a lot of variations on how you set your pres. Another trick is to use a compressor on the input and an attenuator with a footswitch on the speaker. I did that for a while using a cranked 5watt amp and would turn the attenuator on and off for leads. The are many ways to Egypt my friend. I don't do it but have friends that sound damn good with modelers and patches.

[Sea Chief]

Right. a DS-1 is NOT an overdrive pedal. It is a distortion pedal that puts those 'fizzy at any volume' diodes right there. That's why I suggested an OD (which may add some grit, but doesn't have to) or a booster pedal.

I had no idea an OD pedal only added such a small ammount of 'grit' (? I cant see the point of them at all- another confounding distortion thing then). I need more than this, but the DS-1 sounds not the ticket then either; & Im unfamiliar with a boost pedal, but i think Im still trying to find the sound basics (30 yrs trying!!) before I add on boosters et al.

Ok so I wonder about MV amps then, again (Im going round in circles) and if the gtr vol interaction thing works, and if they sound any good of course. I'm not sure if I can cope with an eschertron "musical mega-mart" tho!

[eschertron]

I'm not sure if I can cope with an eschertron "musical mega-mart" tho!

Sometimes hard to take

The point is that every stompbox out there is like a different flavor cupcake. Sure these 10 kinds are chocolate, but some milk, some dark, some with nuts (grit!), some with berries...

What it will take is trying the suggestions you've received and play with the toys you have. If you've always used the champ with the vol on 6 and the guitar vol on 10, then roll down the guitar vol and put the champ on 10 (or 11). If you have a dirt box, try every setting on it that you've never tried before. As Spock said " infinite combinations in infinite variety" or some such.

[pdf64]

Equipment controls may be labelled gain, volume, distortion, saturation, master volume etc; whatever, they are all effectively gain controls, the particular name used tends to represent where they are sited along the signal path; those mounted in the instrument may be seen as the first such gain control in the signal path.

At the risk of being patronising, a query that raises itself is whether you have grasped the concept and operation of a serial signal path?