Loudness

[Shawnobi]

Hope this is the right forum. Hoping for a little advice.

Just started a noisy band. 2 guitarists, bassist, drum machine. The other guitarist plays a 1x12" marshall combo (valvestate 2000 I think). It's crushingly loud compared to my rig.
I run a silverface fender pro reverb with 2x12" Goodmans Audiom 12-P inside. I'm running the thing nearly dimed (pre on 10, master on 7/8). I find single 'higher' note cuts through, sometimes too loud. But power chords are just lost. Even though I've got a choice of pedals (distortion, Rat, fuzz). And I'm getting lost of feedback at this volume with pedals.

Now I know Marshalls have a very compressed sound and volume is a tricky subject. I know watts are power and not volume, speaker sensitivity plays a big parts also. But I feel like this amp shouldn't be getting 'lost' in the racket.
Can anybody see what I'm missing here? Speakers not sensitive enough? (96dB) Fender sounds lovely on its own, btw!

http://www.ajaudio.co.uk/GOODMANS%20...0CATALOGUE.pdf

Thanks.

[Malcolm Irving]

Could be the sensitivity of the speakers. The Goodmans catalogue has a different way of expressing sensitivity. Usually, the sound pressure level in dB at 1 metre is given for 1 watt input.
The Goodmans catalogue specifies how many watts are needed to give 96dB at 1 metre.
For the Audiom 12P it states 1.6 watts (although 12P-G, a guitar version, states 0.4 watts).
If it needs 1.6 watts to give 96dB, then 1 watt would only give 94dB (for comparison with the usual standard).
What speaker is in the Marshall? What are the power outputs of the two amps?

[pdf64]

Fender pre-amps don't tend to overdrive nicely. When using the reverb channel, it often works a lot better to keep the channel volume down, and use a mild overdrive pedal for crunchy rhythm parts.

Has your amp been checked over recently, eg putting out the expected power?
It may benefit from replacing the 6L6 and power supply caps.

The Goodman 12PG are great speakers and I really doubt their efficiency is an issue, but do they present the intended 4 ohm load to the amp, ie 2 x 8 ohm wires in parallel?

Maybe your amp is flubbing out with too much bass?
The key with Fenders is to reduce the bass setting as the volume setting increases.
And (except for lead breaks) avoid heavy distortion on the pedals, as that can end up as an ill defined buzz at high volumes.

Also SFs tend to allow more bass to pass between the pre and power amp; to compound this, they often use the same 30% taper 250k pots for bass as treble, whereas as BFs tended to use a 10% taper for bass.
So the same setting tends to produce a much more bass heavy tonal balance, SF compared to BF.
Try turning the bass right down, eg 2-3, and the mid up high, eg 8-10.
That should give a more 'Marshallesque' tonal balance and help you to cut through.

But is the other guy playing too loud?
It's pointless getting into a volume war, the 'everything louder than everything else' syndrome.

[Malcolm Irving]

Just to complete the picture, if you do have the 12P-G guitar version, 0.4 watts giving 96dB corresponds to 1 watt giving 100dB.

EDIT: Very good suggestions from pdf64 above - a lot easier than changing the speakers!

[Mike Sulzer]

Just to complete the picture, if you do have the 12P-G guitar version, 0.4 watts giving 96dB corresponds to 1 watt giving 100dB.

EDIT: Very good suggestions from pdf64 above - a lot easier than changing the speakers!

But he says he has the P, not the PG, and if we take him at his word, that would explain the problem; 6 db matters, but even 100db is not the best you can do. The 12AX is about 105 db, but it is not really a guitar speaker, and even though it is rated at 100W for other purposes, even 2 of them might not take the power for guitar.

[Malcolm Irving]

... But is the other guy playing too loud?
It's pointless getting into a volume war, the 'everything louder than everything else' syndrome.

Absolutely! Think about your ears - you might want to still be able to use them when you get old. (Speaking from experience here!)

[Enzo]

Does his still blow you away everywhere you roam? Or are you standing with your ears in his "beam"? And could your amp be too close for you to be in your own beam? IE, would it help to set your amp on a chair, aimed at you? And is this balance issue the same for someone 40 feet out front?

[g1]

Assuming yours is standard Fender open-back, but is the valvestate open or closed?
From your description, I get the idea you can cut through with highs, but he is dominating the lows? That is what I would probably expect if he is closed-back.

[The Dude]

Does his still blow you away everywhere you roam? Or are you standing with your ears in his "beam"? And could your amp be too close for you to be in your own beam? IE, would it help to set your amp on a chair, aimed at you? And is this balance issue the same for someone 40 feet out front?

^^^^^What he said. +1

[Old Tele man]

FWIW - Mathematically, "loudness vs. wattage" follows this equation, assuming ALL else (amplifier dynamics, speakers, room dynamics, etc.) remain the same:

L = (P1/P2)^0.30103

...where:

L = perceived loudness, ratio
P1 = new power level, in watts
P2 = old power level, in watts

For example, it takes ten-times (10X) the power to 'sound' twice (2X) as loud:

L = (100W/10W)^0.30103 = (10/1)^0.30103 = (2) = 2X

...and, yes, the power constant 0.30103 above in the equation is related to 3dB.

[d95err]

Just started a noisy band. 2 guitarists, bassist, drum machine.

Your problem has nothing to do with technology or speaker efficiency, it seems to be a people problem. Since you don't use acoustic drums, you can play at any volume level you want, down to whisper levels. So, you simply choose a volume level where all your instruments are heard properly. If the other guitarist can't play at a volume level that is balanced with the band, he should not be in the band.

Now (rant warning) Valvestate amps are IMHO some of the worst amps I've ever played. Extremely harsh; the very definition of icepick-on-your-eardrums. So, they will definately be heard easily (although it will sound terrible). Make sure to tilt the Valvestate amp so the speaker points directly at the ears of the guy using it (he'll turn it down for sure, or even better - get a better amp).

I would also suspect that if you are having trouble hearing the guitars properly, the problem may well be with the bass guitar producing, well.. too much bass. This is especially a problem if you're playing in a small room. Turn the bass knob on the bass amp down (a lot furhter than the bass player would like). Do the same on your mixing console for the drum machine and vocals as well. The result should be that everything is heard much clearer (including the bass guitar).

[J M Fahey]

Agree that there might be a series of small factors, none definitive on its own, but which might add the good or the bad way.
1) he has 100W , and it's easy for an SS amp to get that, even make actual 120W and label tnem 100 .... simply because they can and to boot, SS watts are cheap while:

2) tube watts are harder to get, because tubes are intrinsecally current limited.

Since practical HV usually runs between 400 and 450V with modern tubes, only way to increase power is increase current ... which means adding tubes .... expensive on many counts (not only $$$$$)

Although 2 large bottle tubes are supposed to give 50W and 4 of them give 100 (those stating 60 and 120W respectively are either not measuring or allowing a lot of distortion when doing so) , and I *often* find less than 50 or 100W

To boot, tubes are always going downhill, I often find 2 bottle amps actually around real 40W and many Twins, 4 bottle Marshal heads, etc, doing around 80 .

What's my point?: that the VS will probably have 100W , while your Pro reverb might be doing around 40W.

2) Fenders in general have smooth distortion meaning not aggressive, Marshalls are aggressive per se, and much more an SS Valvestate, always very buzzy.

3) he might have an ~100dB/W speaker while you have some running ~94 dB/W ..... a LARGE difference.

Thanks for posting the catalog, I hadn't seen it for ages.

I not only read "the number" (94 dB/W) but compared response curves (12G vs plain 12) , there is a big difference in low mids and lows, explaining where your speakers are weaker.

In a nutshell: just one of these factors might have been bearable, but you hace:
* less power
* less bite
* less efficient speakers

the combination can be deadly and unfortunately there's not much you can do: those speakers handle 50W *period* , no margin (I know and used them) , so you shouldn't use them with a larger than 60/65W amp .
They sound good though.
Way back then, Goodmans lost the market (Vox, Marshall, etc.) to Celestion mainly because Celestions handled "just enough" power, not because of poor sound.

Just thinking aloud: I'd at least replace speakers (keeping the Goodmans for a less loud environment) by louder/more aggresive ones which would solve 2 out of 3 problems, think a pair of loud aggressive V30 , or even ultra efficient Fane, and maybe someday get a more powerful head ... even SS, go figure.

I hate suggesting something which can be read as "change everything" , but guess that's what it means. Sorry.

PS: I love your present system, but we are talking a noise war here

[Enzo]

True.

And something that is piercing can seem much louder than something smoother, even if the smoother has higher sound pressure levels.

In fact in my shop, I usually use 100Hz as a test signal rather than 1kHz. I can listen to 100 watts of 100Hz easier than I can listen to 10 watts of 1kHz.