Particle board cab vs solid and/or ply....your thioughts?

[daz]

Ok, thanks all. It seems i was worried about nothing, thinking that my PB or MDF (now think it's likely MDF judging by the less course look) might compromise sound but with a modeler especially it seems it may actually be better from all the response. So i guess my experiment showing a pine/ply cab sounding better was likely a matter of the MDF/PB cab just being a inferior one. (and it WAS a cheapie) I transport mine but not a lot so i won't worry about it even with the EV. (only had 4 screws/T nuts but i added 4 more to be safe when i installed the EV)

Thanks for all the replies.

[Chuck H]

+1 to most all of the above.

MDF or PB are good choices for a linear tuned cabinet. I would easily choose one of these materials for a guitar cabinet intended for metal or for a reference amp system.

For more subtle nuance (look forward to the flames and haters) I have to endorse pine and plywood. For small combo cabs, or even up to 4x12 closed backs, there can be an advantage in resonance. My own 1x12 combo has a poplar cab and a marine plywood baffle. Plugging the amp into PB cabinet of similar design and the same speaker DOES yield lesser results (to my own ears). But this only applies to nuance!!! If I were playing strictly high gain stuff I might choose the PB cab for it's flatter response. I must qualify now that I do use the aforementioned cabinet when I'm in a high gain mood Stuck on a desert island though, I'd take the combo in it's own cabinet. The MDF/PB stuff is quite strictly for a flatter response where the cabinet should not contribute tone. For recreating the tones of popular vintage amps or any sort of acoustic signature where the gain is low enough that you can at least tell what sort of guitar a guy is playing (which is discernable by "feel" as much as actual tone) I have to give a nod to the more resonant solid wood and high grade ply baffle construction.

This is just MY opinion... Stevie Ray Vaughn had the baffle in his Super Reverb replaced with 3/4" plywood (all bets are off for resonance at that point). He wanted a more solid sound with LESS resonant phase anomalies. And he did quite well with that I'd say So the bottom line is that tone is where you find it, BUT...

It doesn't hurt to follow your own experience in such matters!!! You've played a lot of gear. What really turned your crank??? Was the cabinets particular resonance, or lack there of, part of the equation???

I guess what I'm getting at is YES, the cabinet materials have an effect on the tone (for better or worse). And you need to experience some of it for yourself to effectively make the choices for any given amp, it's intended purpose and your own preferences.

I'll close with a nod to the consistency of plywood, MDF and PB. You might build a pine cabinet, chasing that elusive "sound" and it might sound like crap because natural woods are inconsistent (and in modern times, of typically low quality). But you always know what you're going to get with the manufactured products.

My two cents are... If you're going into manufacture and you're trying to sell the best possible guitar amp, use plywood. It has at least some good resonance and is a consistent performer. Will work well for most genres of pop music. If you're building one amp for yourself, choose select lumber (pine? poplar is more consistent, but perhaps not as good as the best pine) of a grade and type known to perform as intended. You only get one life and there are no backsies!!! So you may as well have the tone you want, Even if it comes at some expense and effort.

Reverse engineering and evaluation of the most famous cabinets is well documented. Research artists who's tone you like and find out what they recorded with if you can. Before long it's actually easy to hear the contribution of specific gear. Guitar, amp style, speaker/s, mic technique and even cabinet design.

Once you take the mojo out of all this amp design business you can get back to playing your guitars.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Another fine essay Chuck!

A couple points: SRV likely went to 3/4 ply to mount an Electrovoice 15, so that the baffle would carry this heavy speaker without breaking during transport. I've replaced baffles with 1/2 thru 3/4 ply for the same reason, in amps where the owners insist on mounting EV, JBL, Altec and other heavy speakers. With cleating to match. One guy brought in his Twin, the JBL's had crushed the original baffle and tried to escape out the grill cloth - it looked like a Salvador Dali version of an amp. Funny but tragic. Oh well, more work for me!

Poplar's an interesting case. It has resonance qualities that make it a choice for making organ pipes (!) and is one of the more affordable woods available as dimension lumber. We don't much see it used for guitar or other MI cabs though, and I don't see why not. It's easy to work with, and fairly low density. Good stuff.

I've had a couple customers who claim there is some "resonance" quality to certain woods, one had an extension cab made from maple. You know, because Stradivarius made his violins out of maple... Yeh, not 3/4 slabs though. Another housed his Twin Reverb in solid oak. Looks and sounds impressive, but it takes a crane to lift it, ow!

There's also an area of discussion, and I think I've seen it perhaps in MEF, about using & not using Tolex and similar materials to cover the wood. With an overcoat of Tolex or similar on, you have to expect to lose whatever resonance qualities you hoped to have by using fancy wood for your cab. Personally I like the neat appearance of 60's era Fenders, but also like to see plain (stained, varnished) wood with a nice grain to show off.

[Steve A.]

There is the story of Fender trying to build an exact clone of EC's beloved low power Tweed Twin amp for touring. They tried all sorts of different transformers, etc., but it still wasn't right. Finally they tried building a cabinet from pine salvaged from a 100 year old church... Perfect!


As R.G. pointed out the pine harvested today is much inferior to that from old growth forests.


Steve Ahola

[Leo_Gnardo]

As R.G. pointed out the pine harvested today is much inferior to that from old growth forests. Steve Ahola

What we see as pine and similar these days is sapwood. "Heart of pine" was found in the middle of the old-growth trees, a long lasting high quality wood darker and denser than the whitish sapwood that surrounded it. One of my customers was involved in harvesting heart of pine in current times, not from forests, but from abandoned factories, warehouses and other buildings mostly in the midwest from Ohio to Omaha. I have a couple chunks he gave me, sections of floor board about 1.5 inches thick. Heart of pine is also available from "sinker wood", trunks that were supposed to float to mills, in regions from central Canada all the way to Alabama. Not all the logs floated as planned. Now it's a bit of an industry, finding, then hauling 'em out, sawing and selling as prime quality and prime $$$$ lumber to those who can afford it. Would be a hit to see someone making amp cabs from heart of pine. Possibly that's what Fender found for Eric's tweed twin.

[tedmich]

0.75" Nomex honeycomb carbon fiber

$70/sq ft cough cough...

[Mick Bailey]

I consider modelling amps to be a sound reproducer and more akin to Hi-Fi reproduction than a traditional amp. The sound is constructed within the model and reproduced. Too much colouration by the enclosure and speaker wouldn't be a good idea, unless it could be accurately defined and then factored into the model. Pine/ply or any other variable material would mean that one amp may sound slightly different to another.

When we hear a recording of a guitarist, we don't want an enclosure that adds or subtracts from the recorded sound. Yet we hear the original qualities reproduced, more-or-less faithfully depending on our ears and the quality of the system. So, even with particle-board enclosures and 6" drivers in Hi-Fi speakers, the tonal qualities of the original amp/guitar/player can be heard and appreciated. If a modelling amp is good enough, then the qualities should largely be determined by the accuracy of the model and only a 'vanilla' power amp required, with an equally inert speaker and enclosure.

I was an early-adopter of modelling maps. First in line when both Roland and Line 6 bought out their first products and shelling out list-price money for the privilege. I did initially feel cheated with paying out tube amp money for a particle board SS amp, but the whole ethos was new to me back then and I didn't get the reasoning at the time. The killer for me was the insane price reductions on 'old' amps when the updated models came out. There must have been large numbers of unsold stock, dumped on the market at a third of the original price and practically wiping out the secondhand value of my own amps.

[Mike Sulzer]

If a modelling amp is good enough, then the qualities should largely be determined by the accuracy of the model and only a 'vanilla' power amp required, with an equally inert speaker and enclosure.

On the other hand, you might consider this: Guitar speakers have to be much more efficient than HiFi speakers in order to be loud enough, and this results in a colored sound. A guitar speaker intended for modeling needs to be more "generic" than typical so that the electronics can achieve the required range of sounds, and so you can expect it to be somewhat less efficient than a guitar speaker intended for a particular kind of sound, but nonetheless I think it needs the basic characteristics of a guitar speaker.

[Mark Hammer]

We talk about this as if it was entirely unrelated to cab size and weight. If one is making a cab for a single 10" speaker with a modest magnet, then consideration of the acoustic resonant properties of the material dominates. If one is making a 4x12 cab, then the lug-ability of the finished item is most definitely a concern. Unless you have a team of roadies, a forklift, and a truck, somebody is going to have to schlep that thing and hoist it into the back of the van, and if it weighs 100lbs, half your earnings will go to the chiropractor.

As well, maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough, but are we talking about an open-backed or closed cab? My sense is that the particular "dead" resonant properties of MDF and PB are really more suited to closed cabs.

[Mike Sulzer]

We talk about this as if it was entirely unrelated to cab size and weight. If one is making a cab for a single 10" speaker with a modest magnet, then consideration of the acoustic resonant properties of the material dominates. If one is making a 4x12 cab, then the lug-ability of the finished item is most definitely a concern. Unless you have a team of roadies, a forklift, and a truck, somebody is going to have to schlep that thing and hoist it into the back of the van, and if it weighs 100lbs, half your earnings will go to the chiropractor.

As well, maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough, but are we talking about an open-backed or closed cab? My sense is that the particular "dead" resonant properties of MDF and PB are really more suited to closed cabs.

Good point. It would be possible to make a lighter cabinet using thinner plywood and a well designed system of braces to achieve the necessary stiffness. It also would be possible to achieve different "sounds" with different methods of bracing. More expensive to build, but probably worth it if you have to carry it yourself. Someday speakers with light neo magnets will sound right for guitar and not burn out too easily, and that will help as well.

[Richard]

I get the idea that neos lack thermal mass to absorb the heat, a large heavy magnet acts as a heat sink. Is that true?

[g1]

Yes. If you look at high power neos a lot of them have heatsinks.

[tedmich]

The real hiccup in the Neo speaker revolution was when China became the sole supplier and tripled the price of Nd in a couple weeks

[J M Fahey]

0.75" Nomex honeycomb carbon fiber

$70/sq ft cough cough...

Or $1.20/sq. ft. for exact same looking Tolex :


customers have no clue and think it's the same:




Gee Mom, thanks !!!!! :


cough cough

[R.G.]

It occurs to me that guitarists will always attribute special "tone" to special setups, with the full weight of myth and legend added in to confuse as well as enlighten them. The issue of pine versus plywood versus particle board versus MDF is one variant.

Say whatever else you like, the hifi school of audio has produced some very un-colored speakers, or at least some speakers where the speaker's own colorations are known and measured. They are wideband and smooth, if not level response. Good PA systems are sub variants - not as smooth or uncolored, but close. By the same measurement methods, fabled guitar speakers and cabs are NOT smooth and uncolored. Guitarists love to endlessly mess with picking from the various colored speakers and cabs of guitar history, poo-poo-ing uncolored ones.

Yet, somehow guitar through a miked amp into a PA still manages to sound good. This makes the issues separable: one part of a guitar's sound is the distortion and frequency response colorations, another is the sheer loudness added. Colored (voiced?) guitar speakers in colored cabs seem to be part of the tone generation. Once you get that, you can amplify it up to venue levels with a smooth and relatively uncolored PA.

It gets back to guitar speakers not being just loudness devices. They are part of the musical instrument itself. Like the soundboard, stiffening and body cavity shape on an acoustic, the guitar speaker and cabinet are the parts of an electric guitar that couple the vibrations to the air. They just happen to make it louder too, in unpredictable and eclectic or idiosyncratic ways.

Materials that are highly damped - particle board, MDF, panels filled with dry sand like Wharfdale used to use, concrete, etc. - do not add the colorations we're addicted to as guitarists. They also tend to be heavy and may or may not be strong and durable for moving from gig to gig.

Viewed in that light, I wonder whether the work on woods from Joseph Nagyvary would help with good acoustic guitars and electric guitar cabs.