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Why does this amp sound so good?

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  • Why does this amp sound so good?

    Got a Ceriatone 36RP and it sounds frickin great, but I don't know why looking at the schematic. Usually I can look at a schematic before I hear an amp and have a pretty good idea what it's going to sound like and even what mods I'd probably do, but on this one, I'm stumped.

    Forget the EF86 channel a moment (which also sounds great), the M style channel is a slightly tweaked Plexi type circuit where almost everything on the schematic tells me it ought to be similar but brighter to most Plexi circuits. It ain't. It's warm, not harsh in any way or overly bright, none of that brittle glass Plexis tend to exhibit when turned up, punchy, loads of fat midrange even with the 22k mid pot at noon, responsive, nicely compressed....

    And it has as much gain on tap as any 2203/4, maybe more, in spite of having one less stage cascaded. It hits 80's George Lynch tones/gain levels at non-ear shattering volumes and with no pedal required to boost it. It's clearly standard Plexi staging of input stage, 2nd stage, cathode driven stack, albeit with a master tucked in at the end almost as an afterthought.

    But looking at the schematic, I see .01uf coupling caps where .022uf caps generally are, a 1M/500pf combo instead of the usual 470k/470pf combination, an 820ohm CK bypassed by a 1uf cap (which has a higher knee than a 2.7k bypassed by a .68uf), 330pf treble cap instead of 470pf, 47k slope resistor instead of 33k. All those things would lead me to think "This will be brighter/tighter than a usual Plexi". NOT.

    The only things I see that say "warm" are the 56k Rk on the cathode follower instead of 100k, and the voltages are somewhat on the low side on the preamp tubes (and were REALLY on the low side until I found/corrected a factory mistake, 470k dropping resistor where the 2.2k ought to be).

    It is of course cathode biased with optional NFB (which does almost nothing), but I've played Plexi circuits set up that way before and they sounded pretty much like a standard Plexi, nothing like this sounds.

    Any clever individual able to tell me why this thing sounds so different?

    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    We'd be more clever if we had a schematic to look at. Can you link one in?
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    • #3
      No schematic available but the layout is above. I convert them in my head to schematic without thinking too much about it, but if you're used to looking at schematics like most of us are, it can take a minute to adjust.

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      • #4
        Well yes, I could draw one up from the layout, but I'm not gonna. If you look at the same thing a lot it all becomes familiar. On the drive to work, I don;t think about turning left at the 4500 block of Cedar street, I just know I turn at the Burger King. But if I went to Cleveland, I'd like a map.
        Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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        • #5
          Dunno I don't look at them unless I have to work on a Ceriatone since they don't provide schematics, but it doesn't bother me. I'll draw one up and scan it if that helps.

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          • #6
            Is it more or less a clone of something? Looking at eyelet board era fenders, they all have a family resemblance. And I am sure if you see little else, you easily get to the point of no schematic. Similar for older Marshall layouts. Most kit amps are based upon Fender or Marshall amps, at least in a larger sense. I have worked on a zillion of such amps of course over the decades. But right now within reach in my shop are an Oberheim OB-8 and a DSX, A Multivox echo unit, a couple G-K ML series heads, an old heath TA-17, a done Vox AC50, two MAckie Thump18 chassis, and other stuff. So I am not the classic Fender guru type.

            I am actually kinda surprised Ceria doesn't offer schematics, they seem like a very customer oriented company from my limited experience.
            Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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            • #7
              Looking at the layout, I am drawn to your NFB circuit. How does that compare with other stuff?
              Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Enzo View Post
                Is it more or less a clone of something? Looking at eyelet board era fenders, they all have a family resemblance. And I am sure if you see little else, you easily get to the point of no schematic. Similar for older Marshall layouts. Most kit amps are based upon Fender or Marshall amps, at least in a larger sense. I have worked on a zillion of such amps of course over the decades. But right now within reach in my shop are an Oberheim OB-8 and a DSX, A Multivox echo unit, a couple G-K ML series heads, an old heath TA-17, a done Vox AC50, two MAckie Thump18 chassis, and other stuff. So I am not the classic Fender guru type.

                I am actually kinda surprised Ceria doesn't offer schematics, they seem like a very customer oriented company from my limited experience.
                Their market is Musicians who mostly don´t have much use for a schematic either because they plain can´t *read* them or best case can read but not analyze them (as in : "hmmmm, so the tone stack is driven by a cathode follower, that means it will follow more closely the curve that TSC shows" but can follow a "paint by the numbers" layout, which is exactly that, they show not only coloured wires and their path, but even resistors identified by their colour bands.
                And drawn jacks instead of showing the internal leaf switch connections and so on.
                Not a bad idea, I guess it expands potential market base by, say, 10X ... yet they *should* offer a schematic anyway, doesn´t hurt and worst case can be ignored by those not interested.
                Oh well.
                Juan Manuel Fahey

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                • #9
                  I will say I have seen their kits built and I have seen factory wired Ceria units, and they appear to be good quality units.
                  Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                  • #10
                    The wiring is nice and tidy, quality is excellent (except 2 47k power droppers where 4.7k should have been).

                    It's based on an 18W Marshall circuit, except with a TMB stack and some other things; the PI is right out of the circuit as opposed to the big bottle Marshall NFB type PI circuits.

                    I see all kinds of tube amps and I do out-there guitar electronics, but I stay away from keyboards and such. Everyone I know who has got into working on those ends up with piles of them around and often they aren't economical to fix; getting the parts can be a bitch, you have to buy quantity often times to get them, and those things are typically not worth that much used on Ebay... I have plenty of work with guitar amps and guitars. I could draw a classic Fender or Marshall circuit from memory, but even far more complex guitar amp circuits are based on those so I think 1) stage 1: Rp, Grid leak, Rk/CK. 2) etc. in that manner and it's easy to commit them to memory.

                    In any case, I'll draw up a schematic and scan it tomorrow or the next day when I get a few minutes; at least of the relevant parts of the amp.

                    I have a room full of classic amps, demo amps for my mods, and a few newer Friedmans & Germinos which I'm a big fan of, but this little 36W is easily one of the best M type amps I've heard/felt, which surprises me given what I see on paper. It's got plenty of gain without hitting the power amp hard even though it only has 2 gain stages, it is thick and not brittle sounding even though there are no bleeders/plate bypass caps/nfb across the PI, etc.; I'm finding it very interesting. Very curious as to the "why" of it as I don't see anything on paper that leads me to expect those things, so there's something I can learn here and use later.

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                    • #11
                      I will say I have seen their kits built and I have seen factory wired Ceria units, and they appear to be good quality units.
                      Ceriatone are the least expensive handwired amps to my knowledge. The quality looks not very different from some 3-5k "miracle" boutique amp.

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                      • #12
                        I believe there is a limit to how "good" one can build an amp. If the wiring is neat and reliable, that is pretty much it. I have seen amps where the assembler was all anal about it. Fingernail polish on every solder joint, I suppose to prevent corrosion or something. Little pointless teflon sleeves on every resistor or capacitor lead. Glue adjacent components together, I assume for "strength". As far a I am concerned, that is mostly eye candy, and that orange chassis Juan posted in another thread looked perfectly fine to me without that excessive stuff.


                        Can you imagine going through a Fender eyelet board and adding plastic sleeves on all the resistor and cap wire leads between the body of the part and the eyelets? And what advantage is there in lacing the wire harnesses over common plastic tie wraps?
                        Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                        • #13
                          As you noted some go for the visual candy. For example I've heard complaints about someone using slotted head screws instead of Philips type so that kind of people deserve to get ripped off. Also how "expensive amps sound so good"... Well, because you paid 5k for it dummy...

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                          • #14
                            Even though my thinking may be technically flawed but I think the only source of where the fatness can come from is the fact that both channels are joined together in the phase inverter. The EF86 channel has one gain stage, the other channel has two. Normally when putting these channels in parallel you would have a substantial amount of phase cancellation but since the phase inverter is a differential amplifier, instead of a cancellation you may have an addition.

                            You could proove my theory by temporarily disconnecting the EF86 channel from the phase inverter input.

                            Cheers Stephan

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by darkbluemurder View Post
                              Even though my thinking may be technically flawed but I think the only source of where the fatness can come from is the fact that both channels are joined together in the phase inverter. The EF86 channel has one gain stage, the other channel has two. Normally when putting these channels in parallel you would have a substantial amount of phase cancellation but since the phase inverter is a differential amplifier, instead of a cancellation you may have an addition.

                              You could proove my theory by temporarily disconnecting the EF86 channel from the phase inverter input.

                              Cheers Stephan
                              The channels aren't run in parallel, and the channels are quite effectively isolated in that configuration, so that isn't it.

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